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Fnord

07-12-2005, 05:52 AM Post subject: A word on PokerEdge

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I haven't played much poker in the last week, so I just caught up on this development.

By all appearances Party and skins have disallowed the use of PokerEdge.

For online poker to continue to be wildly successful there needs to be a level playing field agreed upon by all the players. Also, it is not in Party's best interest for everyone to lose to the rake. It's in the best interest of everyone for the strong players to win at a steady rate and the weak players to have winning days and have fun as they steadily lose to the rake and stronger players. This is the most sustainable situation for everyone. If Poker Edge is crossing the line and causing the losers to lose too fast, it's certainly reasonable for Party to ban it, nor a huge set-back for the winning players.

Party:
Please make it crystal clear to us what this level playing field is. The current ToS is confusing and the responses from support and investigations are almost as cryptic. This is really bad for the game. Also, it's long over-due for someone in a position of authority to start a direct correspondence with the author of PokerEdge and the major player communities. Compared to PokerStars, Party really drops the ball here. When problems happen there Lee Jones gives a clear authoritative answer to the major player communities.

Poker Edge:
Starting attempts to hide your software is counter-productive and short-sighted. I've said so in your forum as well. It's like seeing a cop with lights and siren on in your rear view mirror then hitting the accelerator. A poor transition from settling the matter as a good citizen to immediately become a de-facto out-law. Get in touch with someone in authority over at Party investigations and get a clear answer ASAP. In the meantime it's prudent to discontinue your service.

FTR Members:
I encourage you to stop using PokerEdge, nor try to avoid detection until this matter is resolved. If Party doesn't give the ok in the next week or two, cancel your PokerEdge subscription.

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elipsesjeff

07-12-2005, 06:06 AM

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So far, I have yet to receive notice from Eurobet. They are pretty lazy about these things and I'll let you know ASAP if I hear anything. Multipoker, Party Poker, Empire Poker, and Poker Now have all sent emails out.

I have yet to hear about Intertops.

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Fnord

07-12-2005, 06:12 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

So far, I have yet to receive notice from Eurobet. They are pretty lazy about these things and I'll let you know ASAP if I hear anything.

Given 'em a week. If anything, I suspect PokerEdge's behavior will only accelerate and aggrivate any process to remove them from the Party network.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

pokerfanatic

07-12-2005, 06:13 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Poker Tracker is still ok they haven’t said shit about it… just go back to the good old PT IMO...

“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

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Fnord

07-12-2005, 06:22 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfanatic01

Poker Tracker is still ok they haven’t said shit about it… just go back to the good old PT IMO...

On the 2+2 thread they said something to the effect of "it's ok, but we might change our minds later" to one of the bigger posters.

It's horrible that Party is sending out critical policy details like this via cryptic responses and second hand information. Party really needs someone like Lee Jones to settle matters like this and save everyone a lot of grief.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

koolmoe

07-12-2005, 06:39 AM

#6 (permalink)

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nh, Fnord

Poker is freedom

StinkyBeaver

07-12-2005, 10:23 PM

#7 (permalink)

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There I just uninstalled, what I thought to be the second most cool poker software I've come across, maybe even the best in terms of $. Anyways It's just not worth the risk, and I guess Fnord has a point about this maybe givin the solid player to much edge against the Fish's.

elipsesjeff

07-13-2005, 05:20 PM

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My thoughts:

http://www.dailyillini.com/media/pap...l-962058.shtml

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Fnord

07-13-2005, 09:29 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Not because of the advantage given to the good players, but because of their losses from the rake they collect.

Both are reasons why Party has decided to ban it.

Also, if you consider that these tools allow playing at more tables profitably, the amount of rake the house collects per unit of good player profit goes down. The house makes more if we play 8 tables at 2BB/100 than 4 tables at 3BB/100 profit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Xianti

07-14-2005, 02:42 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Consider moving this to Tools of Poker...?

elipsesjeff

07-14-2005, 03:12 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Xianti

Consider moving this to Tools of Poker...?

A lot of LHE players read this topic and I doubt anyone but LHE uses this program. I think it'll serve the best purpose here.

That being said, apparently someone on the PE forum said something about a letter from Eurobet, although I've yet to see mine and I will continue to use until I get a warning letter.

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Les_Worm

07-14-2005, 03:30 AM

#12 (permalink)

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I don't understand why the poker rooms lose rake because of these programs. Someone enlighten me.

The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
Phil Ivey Owns You

Fnord

07-14-2005, 04:01 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Les_Worm

I don't understand why the poker rooms lose rake because of these programs. Someone enlighten me.

Because there is an approximate rate at which the fish will lose money and continue to come back. This is why games like Stud Hi/Lo with no qualifier, uncapped buy-in NLHE, etc all have pretty much died out. Once the fish leave only the very top players make any money and eventually the middle class stop winning and leave too. Bad beats and swings keep the bad players comming back for more or deluding themselves into thinking they're really winners.

Conversly games with the opposite problem often suffer the same fate (Razz, Limit Omaha Hi, etc.)

My best guess is that Poker Edge either did or threatened to upset the balance in the opinon of the guys at Party )with better data, a stronger math background and an interest in maintaining balance.) Also consider that it made it easier for better players to play more tables at once targeting weaker oposition. This feeds a higher % of the bad players money to the rake for every $ the good player takes in (more tables at a slightly lower win-rate, compared to fewer tables with the same tools) and if the good player is overall winning more then...

Furthermore, the poker which sites want to promote is supposed to be fun. Playing against a bunch of number heads sharing data to take your money as fast as possible isn't an image the fish much care for. Perhaps a few of them complained...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Curtis-E

07-14-2005, 04:22 AM

#14 (permalink)

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very elequent Fnord..

Well, it was fun while it lasted.....

It's 1 for da $
2 for da Show
3 to get ready
now Puke in That Bowl but don't you!

vegaas2

07-15-2005, 09:40 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Posts: 51

I hope all sites ban PE. Poker should be a game of skill where you have to observe how your opponents play and determine who the fish are. PE allowed you not to sharpen your skills, instead, just allowed a program to tell who the fish were and how they played.

I say good bye and good riddence.

Ram and Jam!

TylerK

07-16-2005, 12:01 AM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by vegaas2

Screw that. Poker should be a game where I make money by pushing buttons, George Jetson style.

TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol

elipsesjeff

07-16-2005, 04:23 PM

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Rumor is going around about the firewall you use could enable you to not be seen.

I use McAfee free antivirus provided through my school and I have yet to see a warning letter. Aparently there was another by the name of kerio or something.

Could be useful to look into.

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elipsesjeff

07-28-2005, 10:03 PM

#18 (permalink)

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...I got my pop-up from eurobet

, I've unistalled it for now.

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Chicago_Kid

08-01-2005, 01:35 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Guys:

I'm late to the game and I've been away from limit for quite some time. Is it fair to say that most poker sites will be banning the use of PE in the near term?

Even though I enjoy making money first and foremost, I think the idea of PE is a bad one for the game as a whole, and inevitably lessens the rewards of those who work hard and study to improve their poker...

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

08-01-2005, 01:41 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid

To quote a PokerStars email (actually regarding the use of StarSpy, but you can pretty clearly see using Poker-Edge on PokerStars is also a no no).

Here we go:

From: PokerStars Support [support@pokerstars.com]
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 12:22 AM
To: starspy@cox.net
Subject: RE: StarSpy

Hello Jay,

First, allow me to state that the Email is authentic -- I wrote it. That
said, please allow me to elaborate.

I'd categorize "assisters" into several categories, starting with the
least innocuous and escalating to the prohibited evilware:

1. Odds Calculators, such as www.pokerinspector.com

These don't track any statistics on the players. They merely analyze
your cards, the pot odds, and other things without regard to the
opponents. These are always allowed.

2. Hand History analyzers, such as PokerTracker.com

These take hands YOU played and allow you to analyze your play after
the fact, or to easily track your performance. These are always
allowed.

3. Real-Time hand history analyzers, such as PokerOffice.com or
PokerTracker.com with GameTime+

These watch the tables as you play, perhaps offering a "heads up
overlay" on the table. These do little more than type 2 tools above,
other than give you a "real time" view instead of an after-the-fact
view. These are allowed at this time, but they do make some players
nervous.

The above stated, this brings us to the final two:

4. Datamining applications, such as StarSpy

These applications enable a player to access a large number of hands
hands not actually played by the player. Type 4 tools gather the
data on these hands personally and do not share the data with others.

5. Aggregation datamining, such as www.pokeredge.com

These tools gather data as do type 4 applications, but report the data
back to a central database which is accessibled by all participants.

At this time, PokerStars has no official position on these datamining
applications. We have in the past, however, shut down operations that
were datamining hands directly out of our servers and made modifications
to make such datamining impossible.

As such, though it is not a written policy, I would say that PokerStars
frowns on mass datamining of opponents against whom you have played no
games.

That said, you may or may not want to take StarSpy off the market. We're
not currently planning to close accounts of players using it, and
*probably* won't do so. There's a chance we might consider stronger
measures against category 5 tools above (as other sites have recently
done), but category 4 tools will at likely be met only with
countermeasures to limit their effectiveness.

I will say that I have actively suggested to senior management some
changes in our software which will severely limit the usefulness of yours,
including limiting the number of non-playing (observer) tables a player
may have open at once, and requiring players to be logged in before being
able to observe any table.

As I wrote in the Email (and this is a personal perception, not company
policy), I find there to be a striking difference between profiling a game
you have played or will play... and mass profiling on the off-chance that
you might encounter those players days or weeks later. While I cannot and
will not "set company policy" on that regard, I know that our current
company policy is such that the former is definitely permitted. I cannot
say that of the latter, and cannot say at this time what policies may or
may not be implemented to prevent the latter.

I do know, though, that StarSpy is definitely in that
questionable "latter" group of tools meant to datamine games in which the
user has not played and has no intention of playing.

You may draw your own conclusions from there.

Best Regards,

Jeff
PokerStars Support Supervisor

Source: http://members.cox.net/starspy/pstars.txt

Poker-Edge is a level 5 program, and is therefore strictly banned by P0kerStars.

elipsesjeff

08-01-2005, 09:26 PM

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Quote:

5. Aggregation datamining, such as www.pokeredge.com

These tools gather data as do type 4 applications, but report the data
back to a central database which is accessibled by all participants.

At this time, PokerStars has no official position on these datamining
applications. We have in the past, however, shut down operations that
were datamining hands directly out of our servers and made modifications
to make such datamining impossible.

As such, though it is not a written policy, I would say that PokerStars
frowns on mass datamining of opponents against whom you have played no games.

Quote:

Poker-Edge is a level 5 program, and is therefore strictly banned by P0kerStars.

I read that section and i think they have no official response. They have not banned it nor there players and they 'probably' wont. They frown upon it but have yet to . Therefore, it is not strictly banned by PS.

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Chicago_Kid

08-07-2005, 06:20 PM

#22 (permalink)

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Yeah, sounds like Jeff the support supervisor has a personal thing against these programs, but the company has not acted yet. It probably will take some upgrades to their programs to prevent these tools and I would imagine they've got to be planning as such.

If the word gets out that players are using these tools, and player participation (i.e., rake) becomes affected, they will act. So, it's in the best interest of people to spread the word as you all are.

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

elipsesjeff

08-07-2005, 08:54 PM

#23 (permalink)

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Well, they now have a WebHud that you can login and search names/paste hand histories.

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WhooFleuryScores

08-22-2005, 11:55 PM Post subject: I wonder why

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Quote:

I have yet to hear about Intertops.

Considering the fact that their cashouts take 3 days and that they offer like 2 reloads the whole year I can understand why they've yet to respond.God knows they never fully responded to my email complaints about gipping me out of the initial deposit bonus

elipsesjeff

09-28-2005, 10:35 PM

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Pacific and UB added...

mmmm, pacific 15/30...

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Ltrain

10-06-2005, 09:59 PM

#26 (permalink)

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I have been seeing more posts advocating poker edge. Is the vote a yes or no on poker edge? And if yes, how do you use the WebHud? Is it detectable?

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.

Tim Vecchioni

10-07-2005, 11:28 PM

#27 (permalink)

Flush

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Location: Maryland US

Posts: 327

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ltrain

I have been seeing more posts advocating poker edge. Is the vote a yes or no on poker edge? And if yes, how do you use the WebHud? Is it detectable?

was looking into the purchase of this after all ive heard about it..anyone mind posting the latest theyve heard for multipoker and pokerstars...thanks

back looking to make some moolah

elipsesjeff

10-07-2005, 11:57 PM

#28 (permalink)

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Theres nothing new, go to their forum to check things out.

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Xianti

03-04-2006, 05:21 PM

#29 (permalink)

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