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hemuli
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04-28-2007, 03:29 AM
Post subject: Winning play? - The Turn
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 7
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Forever wondering question... turn raise, top pair( Aces-Queens), top kicker, don't know the villain... How to play? No three flushes (Three to a straight I almost never pick, problem?) I know poker is a people game... have a hunch tell me yours... No patents, just the winning formula... 
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Call turn/river with just TPTK
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Call turn/river with just TPTK
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Yup. Assuming a regular/sane opponent, if you raise again you will only get called-repopped with something that crushes you. If they are betting something worse or bluffing, let them fire once more on the river.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Out of position you can always call the turn against an opponent and bet the river. You should be willing to fold though if you get raised again on the river.
If you get c/r on the turn or river on what appears to be a safe board (no draws) and only hold TPTK you should consider folding.
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Nehmer
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Out of position you can always call the turn against an opponent and bet the river. You should be willing to fold though if you get raised again on the river.
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What would the river bet possibly gain you? You take away all chances of a worse hand bluffing at you on the river and you don't have any chance of folding a better hand...Add in the fact that you are paying the same amount as you would by check-calling, but you don't gaurantee a showdown like check-calling does since you say you are folding to a raise. I don't see any way that the few times you gain an extra bet from a worse top pair that would have checked down the river make it worth it.
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NWNewell
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL
Posts: 283
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Unfortunetely, you are right.... it is completely player dependent.
I haven't played much online poker lately. But last week I was out in Palm Springs and played some live poker.
Had some guy in the BB c/r my QQ on the turn with a T27[2] board. I called the flop and called the river... he turned over 64o.
And and two hours later some lady donked into my KQ on the turn with a Qxx[8] board. I imideately folded.
Some would say that trip 2's in the big blind seems obvious from the first guy. But I read this guy as very Los/Agg and felt he was making a move and couldn't beat my over pair. So, I made the calls.
With the lady, she played semi-decent but a limped a little too much and was semi-passive. I knew she won't slowplay AQ (and probably would have raised it or an over pair). She probably would have raised AQ or an over pair preflop. But I could see prepaired to call down a weak top pair or maybe even draw with a middle pair. When the 8 hit, I put here one exactly two pair with eights. She turns over Q8s when others call down.
Lucky for me, both times my reads were right... not always the case, but you get the idea. It is totally player dependent. But you should ask your self these questions:
1. Would the villian slowplay something as weak as top pair?
2. Would they raise (c/r) with no signs of a draw if they couldn't beat top pair?
If the answer is "NO" (which I think it will be more often than not) you have to figure you are behind and decide how to proceed accordingly (proper pot odds?).
So I guess to answer your question, as a general rule in FR I would tend to lean towards assuming you are behind (especially if raised in a multi-way pot) unless your read tells you otherwise. In SH games, players tend to be a little more tricky (or play TP/weak kicker and middle pairs ore aggr) so I would lean a little more towards calling down (especially when HU after the flop) unless your read tells you otherwise.
PS I agree that that I don't see a lot of value in betting the river.
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mike4066
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,943
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TPTK type hands I'm a fan of calling the turn and RAISING the river. That the river raise is rarely if ever a bluff and wreaks of slow play. Most people will not 3bet a river raise without a Set or better. It confuses people and they call with 2p, and TP type hands.
Yea, most of the time you gotta bail to the 3bet though, unless you have a read. But you get paid off by mediocre hands so often its gross
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Um... are we in position or out?
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NWNewell
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL
Posts: 283
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
Um... are we in position or out?
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was assuming he was looking generalization of when raised out of of position and c/r in position. Obviously he won't get as good, or accurate, of an answer, but anyway...
But it is a good point...
hemuli, you do realize that each situation represents a different degree of strength and provides different opportunities/decisions/situations that can have a significant impact on EV. And the same goes for if the it is multi-way or heads up. And are you closing the action in a multi-way pot or in the middle? etc, etc. There is a lot that can go into this decision and the more variables you consider, the more accurate your decision will be.
All this may be more than you were looking for from this thread, and that is why I kept my original response general to your questions, but none the less... this is good "food for thought".
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hemuli
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 7
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Ooraidi, thanks for the answers. Especially Newells answers or should I say questions that made me really think what I need to know next time when I hit a tuff call on the turn. Thanks a bunch!
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