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Will opponents tell you if they have better hand than you?

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flopmonkey

12-05-2008, 08:08 PM Post subject: Will opponents tell you if they have better hand than you?

#1 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 85

I read somewhere on this site, can't remember where, that one way to know if the player has a better hand is if they reraise you.
I have been thinking about this while playing my games and noticed it is true.

If I get reraised, then 75% of the time, I am beat.
So it might be a good thing to just fold if I get reraised unless Im 95% sure I have the best hand?

This is a game where I used that concept to "ask" the villian if they had 3 of a kind. It seemed to work. Did I do this right?

FTR Hand History Converter Output (intended for copying and pasting into poker forums!):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (10 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 6

, 6

1 fold, Hero calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, BB checks

Flop: (5 SB) 5

, 8

(5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls

If he had 888, then surely he would have reraised. So I was pretty confident to keep betting this.

Turn: (4.5 BB) 9

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls

River: (6.5 BB) 10

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls

Total pot: $0.34 (8.5 BB) | Rake: $0.01

Results:
BB mucked 5

, Q

(two pair, eights and fives).
Hero had 6

, 6

(two pair, eights and sixes).
Outcome: Hero won $0.33

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Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

KoRnholio

12-05-2008, 09:35 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

Looks good. I'm not too worried about a 9 or even a 10 here. Some villains will go uber passive with the weakest trip 8 hands here (he was in the BB, so 82, 83, 84 are all possible), but often he has a 5 or other small pp.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Knytestorme

12-06-2008, 03:20 AM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Australia

Posts: 562

One thing to remember with limit is the betting structure.

In that hand, if I have an 8 in my hand, I'm just going to smooth call your 3-bet on the flop and then raise you on the turn. If I 4-bet you on the flop then I essentially turn my hand up and then:

* If you have nothing, you fold and I win nothing extra
* If you have an over pair you may call to see what the turn brings and then c/f and I win one extra sb

If however I just call and then check the turn to let you fire again I stand to win at least an extra bb and if you improve to a good second-best hand I stand to win a lot more.

Now there is always the possibility of you catching to a better hand then me, but that is always a risk we take for greater rewards.

Chopper

12-07-2008, 03:55 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

If I get reraised, then 75% of the time, I am beat.
So it might be a good thing to just fold if I get reraised unless Im 95% sure I have the best hand?

this line of thinking really disturbs me. here is a hand where i was reraised several times. do you put him on quads and slow down or even fold?

Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (10 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+2 ($40.15)
MP1 ($18.50)
CO ($24)
Button ($19.75)
SB ($42.55)
Hero (BB) ($54)
UTG ($31)
UTG+1 ($17.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

, K

3 folds, MP1 calls $1, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, SB calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2, MP1 calls $1, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, SB calls $1

Flop: ($10) 8

, K

, 9

(5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1, 1 fold, CO raises to $2, 1 fold, SB calls $2, Hero raises to $3, CO raises to $4, SB calls $2, Hero calls $1

Turn: ($22) 8

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2, CO raises to $4, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6, CO raises to $8, Hero calls $2

River: ($38) 6

(2 players)
Hero bets $2, CO raises to $4, Hero raises to $6, CO raises to $8, Hero calls $2

Total pot: $54 | Rake: $1

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

asdpikas

12-07-2008, 08:14 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

If I get reraised, then 75% of the time, I am beat.
So it might be a good thing to just fold if I get reraised unless Im 95% sure I have the best hand?

this line of thinking really disturbs me.

I love it!

I've come back to full ring a bit.... people are so weak tight its not even funny...
I take down so many pots through aggression i feel like a bully!

Plus they have no idea how to play steals, defence and BvB...

Chopper

12-07-2008, 09:18 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdpikas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

If I get reraised, then 75% of the time, I am beat.
So it might be a good thing to just fold if I get reraised unless Im 95% sure I have the best hand?

this line of thinking really disturbs me.

I love it!

I've come back to full ring a bit.... people are so weak tight its not even funny...
I take down so many pots through aggression i feel like a bully!

Plus they have no idea how to play steals, defence and BvB...

i couldnt agree more. i get in so many bvb wars its almost comical. and, most are taken w/o the slightest fight. i love to 3bet/donk stealers and i love to raise/cbet the BB from the SB. i do either with atc when i have a read on my villain. funny thing is: they all provide me the read w/in about 2 orbits of "testing."

full ring is full of nits, even as low as 25/50c. its not as profitable as a loose/passive table, but its definitely funny in its own way.

oh, and when they adjust, its easy to spot and make the counter adjustment for awhile. you can almost see them getting pissed off through their monitors...lol.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

flopmonkey

12-07-2008, 10:01 PM

#7 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 85

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

Chopper, your game is different because after the flop, you basically know already that you have the best hand with KKK.
I was asking about the times when your really not sure if vllian has the nuts and you know that you do not have the nuts either.

For example, you have 2 top pair with a board with a possible straight. You raise and get reraised at the turn and river...wouldnt you say that most likely villian has the straight?

I have been being much more aggressive lately, trying to get into a raise or fold mentality, and only call when I have the pot odds to make a draw that cant be beat by villian.

My game is improving, im actually winning pretty consistently at the .02/.04 level. Been playing full ring games, but at this level, they are very loose. Infact, people will play ANYTHING. So I have a slight advantage since im tighter. It sucks getting beat when someone calls me, and gets saved by the river...but in the long run its best for me.

I think Ill just hang out at this level for a while, and finish my books, and post games here. Then Ill move on to .05/.10.

12-08-2008, 05:36 AM

#8 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

I rarely 3b the flop in limit. It scares my opponent when I have a hand. I just wait until the turn to raise.

flopmonkey

12-08-2008, 11:51 AM

#9 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

I rarely 3b the flop in limit. It scares my opponent when I have a hand. I just wait until the turn to raise.

Thats because you must play higher stakes. These guys will call all the way to the river with crap hands and insufficient pot odds.

asdpikas

12-08-2008, 12:47 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

Quote:

Originally Posted by flopmonkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

I rarely 3b the flop in limit. It scares my opponent when I have a hand. I just wait until the turn to raise.

Thats because you must play higher stakes. These guys will call all the way to the river with crap hands and insufficient pot odds.

There are times to 3bet the flop, and times to wait to the turn, and times to wait till the river.... It's not black and white, and it's definitely not stakes-based...

Chopper

12-08-2008, 01:26 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by flopmonkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

I rarely 3b the flop in limit. It scares my opponent when I have a hand. I just wait until the turn to raise.

Thats because you must play higher stakes. These guys will call all the way to the river with crap hands and insufficient pot odds.

they still get scared when playing up just a tiny bit higher. and, it can cost you half a bet. and, when 3bb/100 is killing a game, .5 bb's is a lot to give at any time when you can avoid it.

and, as for the KKK hand, i figured you, like many other micro players, start thinking he has quads once the re-raising doesnt stop after your aggression. after all, when they keep raising me, they have the nuts, right?

i see your point about maybe a turn raise beating one pair hands. but, i dont fold sets, straights on 3 flush boards, or medium flushes on paired boards. 3-card boards no longer scare me, but 4-card boards very much do.

besides, you dont have to keep the gas on. you can always pop him, call his 3bet, and c/c the river. or just call down and control the pot better to begin with when the board gets scary and he has tons of aggression, but may be a dillhole. once you get that read/note on him, you can keep the throttle down the next time a similar situation comes up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flopmonkey

For example, you have 2 top pair with a board with a possible straight. You raise and get reraised at the turn and river...wouldnt you say that most likely villian has the straight?

to answer this specifically, like i said up higher...you DONT have to keep the aggression on full throttle. if it's me, w/o a read, i dont get reraised on a river here. i c/c or refuse the opportunity to raise when in position. same with straights on flush boards when i get popped. at most it costs me one more BB. but, it also saves me one a lot, too. so, its kind of a wash. but, again, i take a note and dont let it happen again against the same villain.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

flopmonkey

12-09-2008, 11:14 AM

#12 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Im still trying to find a balance in my aggression. I used to be a passive player that cold called too much, trying to play more tight/aggressive now.

Chopper

12-09-2008, 01:46 PM

#13 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

you dont have to get rid of that passivity, imo. it is extremely valuable in the right spots. it induces bluffs w/ marginal hands so well, for example.

all TAG does for you at the lowest stakes is grab initiative...and sometimes its debatable as to whether you want it, as it can limit your max profit for a hand. often times, TAG poker and initiative will scare the fish into check/calling when you would rather them think they still have something worth a bet....like TPnoK.

you have to use both styles to your advantage...and learn when which is better.

one spot i always remain aggro, tho, is scare cards after i HAVE the initiative, or in limped, orphaned pots. at low stakes, those situations will earn tons of folds. (paired turn cards after you leading the flop come immediately to mind)

dont look so much to balance your aggressive lines as much as you look to find situations to switch between aggro and passive.

and, if you throw any HHs up with this in mind, it would be nice to give some kind of background read on the opponent...stats at a minimum so we can see WHO we may be most likely against.

keep chugging.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

flopmonkey

12-09-2008, 08:40 PM

#14 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 85

I was under the impression that TAG was the ONLY way to play efficiently.

Now you have hammered yet another idea into my head that I have to ponder...

The more I learn about this, the more I realize that I dont know.

Chopper

12-09-2008, 08:47 PM

#15 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

we've ALL been there....and still are.

think about this when it comes to what i just said...

you have AJs and have position on a player that is looser than you, but more aggressive (however, the both of you have hit some hands and splashed some chips around). he limps and you raise. flop comes J X X. he leads out...

how would you play this hand? would you try and make him fold? would you plan a c/r? where? would you check behind a blank turn and c/r the river? would you simply call down? lots of lines possible.

how about if you had 88 and flop A 9 7. now what do you do?

these are some hand conditions to ponder. when you get done with those, change your villain to a passive one, and would you play both hands differently? dramatically?

that should direct your pondering a bit.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

flopmonkey

12-10-2008, 12:57 AM

#16 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 85

AJ & J X X, it depends on what the X's are. If X's are same suit, and my A or J dont match that suit, then he could possibly have flush draw, so Ill just fold. Theres always another better hand for me to win with.

If I make a flush draw, I will call if the pot odds is right. Then raise if I make my draw.

If the X's make a straight draw for me, (K,Q) , Then I will call if the pot odds is right, else ill fold.

If the X is rainbow of small cards, Ill bet on my Jack pair high kicker, all the way to river.

I usually dont play past the flop unless I make atleast top pair or a draw. Then I consider pot odds. Then I consider my opponents style last since im not that experienced, not good at reads, so I dont want to underestimate anyone.

When I have enough evidence to believe I have the best hand, I Bet...and Ive found if they fold or call, then I have the best hand almost 90% of the time.
However if they reraise me, I found that they beat my hand almost 75% of the time. So this goes back to the TAG topic and the original question of this thread. "Will an opponent tell you if they have a better hand?"
In my limited experience I found this to be true.. But im just a fish asking questions.

But lately its wierd because my intuition is usually right about 70% of the time. Like if a K flops on the turn, then limper raises, I know hes got a pair of kings.

Chopper

12-10-2008, 02:13 AM

#17 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by flopmonkey

but, if he has a DRAW, you have TPTK and the best hand NOW. you should be looking to make money here, not fold!! if he will bet his draws, let him and raise him later now or later or both. however, if he bluffs those draws, you LET HIM. if he doesnt bet his draws, he could have TT here, he could have QJ here, he could have 2pr or a set...the fact is you really dont know. but, his "tendencies" will show themselves the more you watch him....and the more you let him spew. (you will see if he gives up at some point, or if he just keeps barreling through to the river.) all are critically important. but, folding here is not an option. bottom line: against a player LOOSER than you, generally, you have a huge equity advantage against the cards he will continue with on a flop like this. you should be looking to max out your winnings until another scarier card comes along. bet, raise, or call and plan to raise him later...all viable choices and i would tell you to mix them up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flopmonkey

If I make a flush draw, I will call if the pot odds is right. Then raise if I make my draw.

if you make a flush draw, in addition to the TPTK, you had better be jamming the holy hell out of this flop. your equity is enormous in most cases against a loose and aggressive player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flopmonkey

If the X's make a straight draw for me, (K,Q) , Then I will call if the pot odds is right, else ill fold.

virtually the same as the "flush draw" you mentioned above. JAM!

Quote:

Originally Posted by flopmonkey

If the X is rainbow of small cards, Ill bet on my Jack pair high kicker, all the way to river.

what if the board pairs? what if a K falls and he raises? fine to keep betting, but dont get married to anything "until the river." get in the habit of evaluating your hand on each street...because its value often changes for better and/or worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flopmonkey

I usually dont play past the flop unless I make atleast top pair or a draw. Then I consider pot odds. Then I consider my opponents style last since im not that experienced, not good at reads, so I dont want to underestimate anyone.

fine for now. but, as you gain experience, you will notice that "opponent's style" starts to slide up your priority list...almost to the point of putting a game plan in place preflop for the river. but, again, dont get married to anything. any card can change things, and it often does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flopmonkey

When I have enough evidence to believe I have the best hand, I Bet...and Ive found if they fold or call, then I have the best hand almost 90% of the time.
However if they reraise me, I found that they beat my hand almost 75% of the time. So this goes back to the TAG topic and the original question of this thread. "Will an opponent tell you if they have a better hand?"
In my limited experience I found this to be true.. But im just a fish asking questions.

you are right. but, i am trying to get you to realize that there are situations where this is not the case. and, its important to see these scenarios develop, or possibly develop, ahead of time. that way, you know what you are looking for and how to apply the gas or brakes depending on what the cards do AND what your opponent tells you the cards did for him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flopmonkey

But lately its wierd because my intuition is usually right about 70% of the time. Like if a K flops on the turn, then limper raises, I know hes got a pair of kings.

this is great. draw confidence from your "gut." it often IS your best guide. but, sometimes odds dictate otherwise. and, sometimes your reads will overtake your "gut."

you are off to a pretty good start. but, dont take everything i say for gospel. i dont want to give that image. i am not close to knowing it all. but, i would like to think i have enough experience to get you through the beginnings of these games.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Knytestorme

12-11-2008, 10:12 PM

#18 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Australia

Posts: 562

here is a hand from the other night.....opponent is 46/10 over about 300 hands. Do I put him on the only hand that beats me, or is something like AQ/AK more likely to turn up here.

Full Tilt Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q

, Q

2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero caps, SB calls

Flop: (9 SB) 9

, Q

, 8

(2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (5.5 BB) A

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, Hero calls

River: (13.5 BB) 6

(2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls

Total pot: $43 (21.5 BB) | Rake: $1

Chopper

12-12-2008, 01:16 AM

#19 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i tend to give more credit to a 1/2 maniac than a 2/4c spastic fool. but, that said, 40+ is pretty friggin wide open for up there...even for 6max. but, obviously, you will see them.

but, he 3bet you pre. has he done that with crap that youve seen? i tend to give him a decent hand here. he sure liked that A, too. i would start leaning towards AK/AQ, maybe a set that waited for the turn to pop you. also, there arent any realistic draws that would 3bet pre here, imo.

so, my guess is you have him absolutely crushed and overplaying his own hand into you. i would likely cap it all the way down. if he has AA, so be it. if he has JT he's a complete fool and you have outs to take that hand down when the action goes ballistic on the turn.

i say, "job well done."

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Knytestorme

12-12-2008, 03:18 AM

#20 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Australia

Posts: 562

Good analysis Chopper and pretty much my thoughts.

When he liked the A on the turn I put him on most likely AQ that was scared by my aggression and had me on something like KK (my stats up till then were 23/19..yay for opening up).

His aggression on the river still worried me, and I considered slowing down but honestly I never considered JT due to his pre-flop action and stats with an agg factor of ~1.2, I don't see him 3-betting me with JT there. The only hand I was worried about was AA but if we're going to always be worried about monsters under the bed in hands like this then we never make value and that was the point I wanted to put forth.

Yes, he had AA but IMHO it would be major leak at these stakes to always put opponent on that based purely on the way the hand played, once we take stats into account.

Chopper

12-12-2008, 03:50 AM

#21 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

you were fine, imo. he had you squarely on AK, imo.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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