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This is why slowplaying can bite you in the ass.

  
 
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chardrian
Old 05-22-2005, 06:24 PM     Post subject: This is why slowplaying can bite you in the ass. #1 (permalink)  
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Paradise Poker 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, K.
UTG calls, [color:#666666]1 fold[/color], Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) T, 9, 7 [color:#0000FF](4 players)[/color]
Hero checks, BB checks, [color:#CC3333]UTG bets[/color], Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) Q [color:#0000FF](3 players)[/color]
[color:#CC3333]Hero bets[/color], UTG folds, [color:#CC3333]Button raises[/color], [color:#CC3333]Hero 3-bets[/color], [color:#CC3333]Button caps[/color], Hero calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 2 [color:#0000FF](2 players)[/color]
[color:#CC3333]Hero bets[/color], [color:#CC3333]Button raises[/color], [color:#CC3333]Hero 3-bets[/color], [color:#CC3333]Button caps[/color], Hero calls.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

Results in white below: [color:#FFFFFF]
Hero has Jc Kc (straight, king high).
Button has 8d Js (straight, queen high).
Outcome: Hero wins 19.50 BB. [/color]
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Phyl
Old 05-22-2005, 06:38 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Nice hand.

Raise KJs preflop.
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chardrian
Old 05-22-2005, 06:50 PM #3 (permalink)  
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True. I raise everyone else woulda called (like they always do). It's a leak I'm working on - getting gunshy with hands like JK and QK suited since almost everyone calls or raises with A rag.
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JJDylan
Old 05-22-2005, 06:52 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
Nice hand.

Raise KJs preflop.
from the SB i dont think i raise KJs
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chardrian
Old 05-22-2005, 07:08 PM #5 (permalink)  
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In a 5 max 3/6 game... well it can go either way. In general I agree the raise is the best thing to do in the long run - you have enough foolios that are playing hands like his 8J os or A rag that will call your raise and then feel like they need to call you down with mid-pair or even A hi that you will end up making more $ by raising. If your flop hits, you have a money making hand - if it doesn't you can lay it down and just be down 2 small bets.
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Phyl
Old 05-22-2005, 08:26 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJDylan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
Nice hand.

Raise KJs preflop.
from the SB i dont think i raise KJs
KJs plays great multiway and has an equity edge against the typical crap these players limp with.

I can't back that up with evidence because I'm too dumb to use PokerStove and the like. If someone could run an equity simulation I'd appreciate it.
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poskid_1982
Old 05-23-2005, 02:07 AM #7 (permalink)  
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KJs is an easy raise PF in 5-handed even in the SB. I want the BB out or at least rocking back and the aggression in my hands if an A or K falls on the flop. Play this hand with some balls with only limpers coming in.

KJ is still a good hand...Just easily dominated. With no raises from UTG or Button I'm liable to think I may have the best hand at this point.
Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
 
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pokerfanatic
Old 05-23-2005, 03:50 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
Nice hand.
Raise KJs preflop.
umm you are WAY out of PO to be raising this PF IMO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
KJs plays great multiway and has an equity edge against the typical crap these players limp with.

I can't back that up with evidence because I'm too dumb to use PokerStove and the like. If someone could run an equity simulation I'd appreciate it.
This is 3/6 game I have to give at least one of the guys credit to have KJ dominated... AXs in clubs has your KJs in clubs dominated if you hit a FD, in SB I’m not a fan of raising EP with easily dominated hands, I however wouldn’t care if you raised on the Button with the hand because you get to see what everyone else does besides steering the action in 1st po, I’m sorry but I can’t agree with a raise here in EP… It's a 5max game but that doesn't mean you need to get stupid aggressive wit ha marginal hand IMO… If you want to raise two suited PF in EP at a 5max, should be Ax IMO, I say this because IF you due hit your draw, your going to be drawing to the nuts here is an example of what I mean by being dominated…

Game #646071253: Texas Hold'em Limit ($1/$2) - 2005/05/18 - 00:49:28 (ET)
Table "Reed" Seat 3 is the button.
Seat 1: pkrfan1 ($66.38 in chips)
Seat 2: clo4leaf ($18.50 in chips)
Seat 3: barneyd ($4.25 in chips)
Seat 4: bbread4 ($36.54 in chips)
Seat 5: Kiss666 ($96.33 in chips)
Seat 6: VUDU-DOC ($30.88 in chips)
bbread4: posts small blind $0.50
Kiss666: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to pkrfan1 [6c Qc]
VUDU-DOC: calls $1
pkrfan1: calls $1
clo4leaf: folds
barneyd: folds
bbread4: calls $0.50
Kiss666: checks
----- FLOP ----- [5s 9c 8c]
bbread4: bets $1
Kiss666: calls $1
VUDU-DOC: calls $1
pkrfan1: raises $2
bbread4: calls $1
Kiss666: calls $1
VUDU-DOC: calls $1
----- TURN ----- [5s 9c 8c][Ac]
bbread4: checks
Kiss666: bets $2
VUDU-DOC: folds
pkrfan1: raises $4
bbread4: folds
Kiss666: raises $4
pkrfan1: calls $2
----- RIVER ----- [5s 9c 8c Ac][5c]
Kiss666: bets $2
pkrfan1: raises $4
Kiss666: raises $4
pkrfan1: calls $2
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Kiss666: shows [Kc 4c] (A Flush, Ace high)
pkrfan1: mucks hand
Kiss666 collected $34.25 from Main pot
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Fnord
Old 05-23-2005, 05:12 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic01
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
Nice hand.
Raise KJs preflop.
umm you are WAY out of PO to be raising this PF IMO
I would raise pre-flop too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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poskid_1982
Old 05-23-2005, 07:53 AM #10 (permalink)  
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There's a big differnce between QXs and KJs. Namely two Face cards and a bigger flush. AXs is going to dominate you sometimes...but I'm not playing this for just for it's flush capability. I have a decent kicker with either pair. If you think of KJs as a flush making hand only then you are going to lose money with it.
Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
 
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Phyl
Old 05-23-2005, 08:32 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic01
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
Nice hand.
Raise KJs preflop.
umm you are WAY out of PO to be raising this PF IMO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
KJs plays great multiway and has an equity edge against the typical crap these players limp with.

I can't back that up with evidence because I'm too dumb to use PokerStove and the like. If someone could run an equity simulation I'd appreciate it.
This is 3/6 game I have to give at least one of the guys credit to have KJ dominated... AXs in clubs has your KJs in clubs dominated if you hit a FD, in SB I’m not a fan of raising EP with easily dominated hands, I however wouldn’t care if you raised on the Button with the hand because you get to see what everyone else does besides steering the action in 1st po, I’m sorry but I can’t agree with a raise here in EP… It's a 5max game but that doesn't mean you need to get stupid aggressive wit ha marginal hand IMO… If you want to raise two suited PF in EP at a 5max, should be Ax IMO, I say this because IF you due hit your draw, your going to be drawing to the nuts here is an example of what I mean by being dominated…
KJs is not a marginal hand, seriously. It is a powerful hand in multiway pots.

When the pot is multiway the threat of domination becomes less important and ability to make straights and flushes becomes more important. KJs is a good hand for this. Also don't forget there's a good chance we have one of the other players dominated - KTs QTs QJs JTs or other Kx/Jx crap.

2 players have limped before the action gets to Hero, KJs is going to win at showdown more than 33% and therefore you make immediate profit by raising. Raising also gives you a large increase in folding equity as a bonus.

Also 5 handed, don't you think the other players would have raised with anything that dominates or even beats KJs?
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pokerfanatic
Old 05-23-2005, 03:16 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
Also 5 handed, don't you think the other players would have raised with anything that dominates or even beats KJs?
maybe, maybe not… I think this because I give credit for players being semi knowledgeable at a 3/6 level to where they are capable of getting cute here and there… but this might consist only around 30 to 40% of the time thus they might be trying to limp raise, c/r on a feature round god only knows… but I guess raising here would give you and instant fell where everyone else is at besides for pot equality… I wasn’t really thinking about that too hard… I think my statements is wrong in most situations unless you have reads and have reason to play it other wise…

Quote:
Originally Posted by poskid_1982
There's a big difference between QXs and KJs. Namely two Face cards and a bigger flush. AXs is going to dominate you sometimes...but I'm not playing this for just for its flush capability. I have a decent kicker with either pair. If you think of KJs as a flush making hand only then you are going to lose money with it.
There is also a difference in skill level here that’s a 1/2 6max and the KJs is a 3/6 5max I’m sure they play way different… But I was just showing you that people play Ax and Kx suited all the damn time… at least they due at 1/2… KJ is high carded by any Ax so where can you get high card value? “Namely two Face cards and a bigger flush…” this sounds like a fish line to me “they were suited and paint why not play them…” but I guess at 5/6max you are playing a lot looser like a fish anyways…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
I would raise pre-flop too.
Umm I guess this is why I don’t play 6 max too damn often, my thoughts are usually wrong… I guess I’ll stick to commenting on 9/10max
“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

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"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
 
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chardrian
Old 05-23-2005, 03:54 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Also 5 handed, don't you think the other players would have raised with anything that dominates or even beats KJs?
That's what you would think isn't it?

The play, in general, is bad, weak, ugly, etc. That's why even with my errors and the rake I am still making my bankroll at this game. Players do the opposite of what they should do. They raise with crap like 7J suited and limp with AK, AA-JJ, etc.

I agree I should've raised preflop. The whole point in a short-handed game is to steal a bunch of small pots, and win the big ones. This had the makings for a big one and I shoulda maximized my bets.
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cassette
Old 05-23-2005, 04:04 PM #14 (permalink)  
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I would not only raise pre-flop but I would also raise the flop itself. Your looking at a double gut-shot with two overcards and a backdoor draw to the second nut flush. With that many outs and the pre-flop passiveness I would raise the flop.

I'd like to see this to the river and you have a decent chance at a free card on the turn.
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chardrian
Old 05-23-2005, 04:17 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Not my style to bet into the open end str8 draw and the flush draw there with just two overs that might make OTHERS hands. J gives the drawers with an 8 a str8, K gives drawers with JQ a str8. Add a diamond to either of those cards and you got a flush beating me as well. My dream was to get one of the three non-diamond Qs, and it worked out.
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Phyl
Old 05-23-2005, 04:22 PM #16 (permalink)  
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I didn't notice it before but the turn looks like a really good spot for a check/raise.

I prefer a check/raise to leading out here, it has a better chance of trapping Button and UTG for two bets.
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chardrian
Old 05-23-2005, 06:21 PM #17 (permalink)  
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I was pondering the checkraise on the turn, but didn't want to lose a bet.
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-23-2005, 06:22 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic01
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
Nice hand.
Raise KJs preflop.
umm you are WAY out of PO to be raising this PF IMO
I would raise pre-flop too.
I wouldnt, KJs isnt THAT good of a hand to be raising this out of position in a multiway shorthanded game. You are behind to any ace and most likely are dominated against passives. In a loose full ring table, however, I raise this to build the pot. Also, my implied odds are larger. Also, its more likely this is a break even hand that if you raise or not you are just increasing your variance by raising.


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Fnord
Old 05-23-2005, 10:42 PM #19 (permalink)  
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I like to raise a lot so all of the other Poker Tracker guys see a nice big fat 12%+ PFR when they look at my stats. You wouldn't believe the shit they 3-bet me with when I raise UTG *cackle*. I'm really likeing what the table image of a the TAgg pre-flop maniac does for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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