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This is why I don't Love Omaha

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raza

02-27-2005, 04:29 PM Post subject: This is why I don't Love Omaha

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 14

The whole table was quite passive. MonkeyEyes was playing loose passive otherwise, but against me he would go bonkers. And catch everything on the river. I wish I'd won even one big pot against him, but no...

> Hero posted small blind ($0.25)
> vinho69 posted big blind ($0.50)
> Game # 191,748,xxx starting.
> Dealing Hole Cards
Hero

MonkeyEyes

> daredevil8 called for $0.50

> diff-rent folded
> lassemassa called for $0.50
diff-rent> nh
> MonkeyEyes called for $0.50
> Hero raised for $2.50
> vinho69 called for $2.25
> daredevil8 folded
> lassemassa called for $2.25
> MonkeyEyes called for $2.25
> Dealing the Flop(

)
$50 Sunday Lunch Xpress starts in 5 minutes.
Qualify for todays $530 Sunday Lunch Special at 15:15.
> Hero bet for $11.50
> vinho69 folded
> lassemassa folded
diff-rent> still no aces
> MonkeyEyes went all-in for $39.37
Hero> 58K flop, I have 5679, "few outs" again MonkeyEyes
> Hero, you have 10 seconds to respond
Hero> any 6, 7, 9...
> Hero went all-in for $5.08
> Extra chips returned to MonkeyEyes, $22.79
> Dealing the turn(

)
> Dealing the river(

)
> MonkeyEyes shows Three of a Kind, Queens
(

)
> MonkeyEyes wins $42.46 with Three of a Kind, Queens

> Hero posted small blind ($0.25)
> vinho69 posted big blind ($0.50)
> Game # 191,758,xxx starting.
> Dealing Hole Cards
Hero

MonkeyEyes

diff-rent> ladbrokes u ****
daredevil8> i contribute a lot
Hero> flopped it again monkey
> daredevil8 called for $0.50
> diff-rent folded
MonkeyEyes> you hero
> lassemassa called for $0.50
> MonkeyEyes called for $0.50
> Hero called for $0.25
> vinho69 checked
> Dealing the Flop(

)
diff-rent> do u think bots on this site?
> Hero checked
> vinho69 checked
> daredevil8 checked
> lassemassa checked
> MonkeyEyes bet for $2.50
> Hero called for $2.50
daredevil8> no they don't need it
diff-rent> some players always raise but say nothing
> vinho69 folded
> daredevil8 called for $2.50
> lassemassa folded
> Dealing the turn(

)
> Hero bet for $10
> daredevil8 folded
diff-rent> so i just leave the table
> MonkeyEyes went all-in for $21.12
Hero> nut straight
> Hero called for $11.12
> Dealing the river(

)
> MonkeyEyes shows a Straight, Six high
(

)
> Hero shows a Straight, Five high
(

)
> MonkeyEyes wins $49.64 with a Straight, Six high
> vinho69 posted small blind ($0.25)
> daredevil8 posted big blind ($0.50)
> Game # 191,759,xxx starting.
> Dealing Hole Cards
MonkeyEyes> ha ha

> Game # 191,793,xxx starting.
> Dealing Hole Cards
Hero

MonkeyEyes

> MonkeyEyes raised for $1
> Hero raised for $1.50
> vinho69 folded
daredevil8> foleded 9high st8
> daredevil8 called for $1.50
> LuvKurt called for $1.25
> Vexx folded
> MonkeyEyes called for $0.50
> Dealing the Flop(

)
> LuvKurt checked
> MonkeyEyes checked
> Hero bet for $6.50
> daredevil8 folded
> LuvKurt folded
> MonkeyEyes called for $6.50
> Dealing the turn(

)
> MonkeyEyes checked
> Hero bet for $19.50
> MonkeyEyes went all-in for $22.34
Hero> I had nut flush.
daredevil8> woooooow
Hero> now I have the nut straight, TJQ
> Hero called for $2.84
> Dealing the river(

)
> MonkeyEyes shows a Flush, Hearts
(

)
> Hero shows a Straight, Ace high
(

)
> MonkeyEyes wins $61.18 with a Flush, Hearts
vinho69> YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
MonkeyEyes> kiss my face

> Dealing Hole Cards
Hero

MonkeyEyes

> Dealing the Flop(

)

> MonkeyEyes bets $2.50
> Hero calls for $2.50
> vinho69 calls for $2.50
> LuvKurt folds
> Vexx folds
> Dealing the turn(

)
> vinho69 checks
> MonkeyEyes bets $5.00
> Hero raises for $25.00
> vinho69 folds
> MonkeyEyes calls for $20.00
> Dealing the river(

)
> MonkeyEyes went all-in for $58.03
> Hero went all-in for $17.62
> MonkeyEyes wins $93.24 Straight

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Yeldud

02-27-2005, 08:18 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 149

Hand 1
Not a hand I would raise pre-flop with. The flop bet was a bit aggressive, while at the same time your opponents all-in was mind boggling.

Hand 2
Fold pre-flop

Hand 3
Check the flop, bet hard on the turn blank. River was unfortunate

Hand 4
Fold pre-flop
Any J, 6, or heart would beat you on the river, giving your opponent 17 good, but not made outs - his odds were correct to call you. Why go all in on the river; your straight was very vulnerable?

All in all, tough breaks, in the long run, players like that will pay you off.

If you put all your faith in the river, you are up shit's creek

raza

02-28-2005, 07:25 AM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeldud

Hand 2
Fold pre-flop

Umm fold from small blind when nobody raises? I flopped 6 out draw for nuts and hit on the turn card...

Otherwise thanks for the comments.

Yeldud

02-28-2005, 12:28 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 149

Quote:

Originally Posted by raza

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeldud

Hand 2
Fold pre-flop

Umm fold from small blind when nobody raises? I flopped 6 out draw for nuts and hit on the turn card...

Otherwise thanks for the comments.

I did not realize you were small blind, but yes, I still let this go from small blind into an unraised pot. The hand was too uncordinated for my liking - even from the SB, especially since you had the worst position.

6 outs is nothing in Omaha. You actually hit a suckers straight on the turn. With the 10 and A, any paint card on the river opens up the possibility of a higher straight. Ace low straights are very weak in Omaha when there is a 10 or higher on the board. Yes you had the nuts on the turn, but there were too many scare cards in the deck that you were drawing dead to.

Of course, your opponent has demonstrated their ability to bluff and be wild, which is why you needed position on him, which you did not have in hand 2.

Does this help any?

If you put all your faith in the river, you are up shit's creek

|~|ypermegachi

02-28-2005, 04:32 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

these are all folds except for hand 3.

stay away from all middle cards. more often than not you'll make the bastard side of the straight.

hand 3 well played.

DoGGz

03-09-2005, 03:03 AM

#6 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

I wouldn't actively play ANY of those 4 hands pre-flop.

Here's some good articles I think you need to read, coming from a world champ omaha player:

http://www.ultimatebet.com/learn-pok...-advanced.html

raza

03-09-2005, 07:03 AM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by doggz

Thanks for the great link. Though all Annie's articles seem to be about Omaha 8-or-better, ie. hi/low. All my hand reviews were from Omaha high.

I know I must review my play, position wise especially, but I still feel I had the better of it. I isolated the fish, got my chips in when I was leading. While I know the game is far from over on the turn card, I still feel I had a good read on this guy and made the right choices - except on the last hand - I admit I was getting bit frustrated there.

pete63

03-10-2005, 03:13 PM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 8

raza, one could say, with those holecards you played, you got as lucky on flop and turn, as you got unlucky at river. I doubt the hands you displayed were general hands, but hands that someone draw out on you... I bet you have drawn out on others aswell, so it should even out... If you feel people are drawing out on you too often, try playing starting hands with multiway potential... hands that can make a straight, and when it gets counterfeited, you get a better straight... or a flush, or a full house... then there is no way for you to lose the big pots... And when hitting vulnerable hands on flop, be prepaired to fold...

raza

03-11-2005, 08:07 AM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete63

raza, one could say, with those holecards you played, you got as lucky on flop and turn

But isn't that the way you are supposed to play pot limit omaha. See cheap flops, bet when you hit. Bail if you don't. If I only play AAKQ hands and wait for them to flop nicely, I'll be playing 1 hand per hour or something. In a loose passive table you can easily see more flops and bet when you hit nuts or are drawing to nuts with 10+ outs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete63

I bet you have drawn out on others aswell, so it should even out...

If I draw, I make damn sure I have outs to justify it, I don't just call with a hunch or while simply tilting (which would seem . But I get called plenty of times with 4 or less outs and get sucked out. I wish Poker Tracker could track Prima automaticly and just make a comparison to river suckouts you've received and delivired.

DoGGz

03-11-2005, 06:22 PM

#10 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by raza

But isn't that the way you are supposed to play pot limit omaha. See cheap flops, bet when you hit. Bail if you don't. If I only play AAKQ hands and wait for them to flop nicely, I'll be playing 1 hand per hour or something. In a loose passive table you can easily see more flops and bet when you hit nuts or are drawing to nuts with 10+ outs.

Apparently you aren't listening. This is NOT how you play PL omaha. In NL holdem you don't just "see cheap flops and bail" do you? No, you don't.

pete63

03-11-2005, 08:46 PM

#11 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 8

raza, how you think pot limit Omaha should be played, is how bad players think. "Any hand can win, just if they hit a good flop". While that is true, good hands that hits the flop has much greater to make you money than bad hands that hit the flop. In Omaha it's not enough to simply have the current nut hand, you need to have the nut hand on the river aswell. For example, if you hit trips J on flop, there is not possible to have the nut hand on river, unless the board pairs... on turn a single player may have as many as 20(!) outs to beat your trips on river... if you had a good hand, which made you trips on flop, and chance to an even better hand on turn and/or river you wouldn't be vulnerable to this threat. You could bet more aggresively and you would run a lot lesser risk to get counterfeited on river. A bad starting hand doesn't have this privilegue, but since you hit with them sometimes, you get tricked to go to the river with a hand that may easily be counterfeited and you will lose your money.

It is correct however, that loose passive games makes it right to see more flops than a loose aggressive game... but not that many more hands... then my personal opinion is that your position would affect your choice of starting hands more... because you want to have the chance to reraise with a nut hand on river with players that has already called, and you don't want to be forced to bet a non-nut hand out of position because you are afraid to show weakness to a player that might bluff you if you check... good position is a huge advantage in pot limit omaha...

It's easy in Omaha to have outs, but the question is - outs to what? Only outs to nut hands count in Omaha... and bad starting hands have very little chance to make nut hands.

How to play exactly is always just general... there may be situations that aren't general, then you have to use your judgement. However, not understanding the importance of starting hands who has good potential is bad judgement to start with...

you don't have to wait an hour to play a hand, but folding 60-70% of your hands is realistic... and don't be afraid to fold hands in SB that you would never play otherwise...

raza

03-14-2005, 08:39 AM

#12 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete63

In Omaha it's not enough to simply have the current nut hand, you need to have the nut hand on the river aswell.

I simply don't understand how you are going complish this more then once an hour, if you guys don't play flops futher unless you hit nut straights with flush draws and trips... In my opinion one of the above should be enough to continue to turn card, and if you still hold the nuts, I'd surely see the river without folding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete63

For example, if you hit trips J on flop, there is not possible to have the nut hand on river, unless the board pairs... on turn a single player may have as many as 20(!) outs to beat your trips on river...

I do understand that most trips aren't very strong hands without the board pairing, but in my examples I did hold the nuts with a straight and in my third example I held the nut straight that could only improve to a better nut straight. I could only be beaten by the board pairing or the flush (1 out of 3?). I have to view myself as the favorite after the turn card was a blank. ???

I lost nice lump of money yesterday when I counted myself 20 outs. With 3478 double suit I hit a flop of A56 rainbow. I got my money in the middle, heads up, on the flop. 4 on the turn card gave me the nuts, ace on the river and bam, I lost to quad aces. My opponent had me down to 7 outs for winning (deuce & three), and few more outs for a split, he had a monster, AA78.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete63

It is correct however, that loose passive games makes it right to see more flops than a loose aggressive game... but not that many more hands... then my personal opinion is that your position would affect your choice of starting hands more... because you want to have the chance to reraise with a nut hand on river with players that has already called, and you don't want to be forced to bet a non-nut hand out of position because you are afraid to show weakness to a player that might bluff you if you check... good position is a huge advantage in pot limit omaha...

In the third hand example I had position over MonkeyEyes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete63

It's easy in Omaha to have outs, but the question is - outs to what? Only outs to nut hands count in Omaha... and bad starting hands have very little chance to make nut hands.

I usually count my outs to to nuts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete63

you don't have to wait an hour to play a hand, but folding 60-70% of your hands is realistic... and don't be afraid to fold hands in SB that you would never play otherwise...

Can I ask, what is you % of flops seen in Pot limit Omaha, and what is % of wins over those. In a 6 player table (==only tables I play). Or what those percentages should be in your oppinion..

I do understand I sound like a thick headed fish here, and perhaps I still am, my apologies. But I do tend to get my money in the middle when I'm ahead, shouldn't that end up winning me more money then losing? When hand simulators give me over 50% chance of winning over my opponent?

Thank you for your opinions, and comments, I do appreciate them even if I seem to question them. Thank you.

pete63

03-17-2005, 12:28 AM

#13 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by raza

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete63

In Omaha it's not enough to simply have the current nut hand, you need to have the nut hand on the river aswell.

What I mean by this is that what your current hand is doesn't count. What counts are your outs for the river. I don't mean that nut hands on flop are always trash hands. But see it from the other way. If you don't have a single pair on the turn, and you have 40 outs to get the nut hand on river, wouldn't you go for it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by raza

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete63

Yes, ofcourse those situations are unlucky. Generally you were behind before the flop, and you were ahead on the flop and on the turn, and behind again at the river. Remember that many outs is no garantee for victory. All you can do is to try and always have as many outs on your side as possible... playing enough hands you will have the luck on your side a fair amount of times!

Quote:

Originally Posted by raza

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete63

In the third hand example I had position over MonkeyEyes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by raza

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete63

It's easy in Omaha to have outs, but the question is - outs to what? Only outs to nut hands count in Omaha... and bad starting hands have very little chance to make nut hands.

I usually count my outs to to nuts.

Nuts on flop/turn or nuts on river? On flop and turn there is only outs...

Quote:

Originally Posted by raza

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete63

you don't have to wait an hour to play a hand, but folding 60-70% of your hands is realistic... and don't be afraid to fold hands in SB that you would never play otherwise...

Can I ask, what is you % of flops seen in Pot limit Omaha, and what is % of wins over those. In a 6 player table (==only tables I play). Or what those percentages should be in your oppinion..

I am not sure my numbers is a good guideline. I also play more Omaha hi/lo than Omaha high and I normally play full games. I see flop about 30% of the time and I fold on SB more than 50% of the time... Win% at showdown is about 55%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by raza

I do understand I sound like a thick headed fish here, and perhaps I still am, my apologies. But I do tend to get my money in the middle when I'm ahead, shouldn't that end up winning me more money then losing? When hand simulators give me over 50% chance of winning over my opponent?

Everyone have flaws in their play. I think it's great that you try to do something about yours and thinking about your game is a great way. Very few questions in poker has a simple answer. And Omaha is even more difficult because there aren't many experts out there and there are so many different situations which occurs in the game, that you could never cover them all even if you wanted. And if poker was simply a showdown contest then there would not be much point thinking about strategy.

When you get yourself allin while you are ahead, then you should win more than you lose. But don't make statistical conclusions out of just 5 hands. The variance can get pretty big. I am sure you have won many pots too, but it's easy to only think about the times you had a greater chance to win, but lost.

The sites are also taking pretty nice money through the rake. If you are even after a session, without rake you would have been up significally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by raza

Thank you for your opinions, and comments, I do appreciate them even if I seem to question them. Thank you.

Others' opinions may be good because you get to see things from another perspective. That perspecitve is not always the only right perspective, so it's good that you question it! Good luck..!

LockLow34

03-21-2005, 11:40 PM

#14 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Ashburn, VA

Posts: 266

Raza, I've been playing Omaha for about 1.5 years now. Both live and online, but mostly live. What I've come to realize is that it is very much a game of draws to the nuts. You want the nuts on the river, so you want to play hands that can make as many different ways to win as possible. Hence, starting hand selection is vital, in fact MUCH more vital than Hold'em, even. You want cards that coordinate with each other. And if that means waiting for an hour or more to get one, then so be it. In a $1/$2 game that's only $12 (at 40 hands an hour), while the one hand you do play might make you $40 or $50. Small price to pay, isn't it?

"How deep is the money?" - Fnord

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