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Fnord
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09-23-2005, 05:50 AM
Post subject: Where do you dump this one?
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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MP1 looks kinda TAggy
Button is TAgg
BB is loose/passive
Where do I dump this one?
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Fnord is SB with J , J . MP2 posts a blind of $2.
2 folds, MP1 raises, 3 folds, Button 3-bets, Fnord calls, BB caps, MP1 calls, Button calls, Fnord calls.
Flop: (17 SB) Q, T, 4 (4 players)
Fnord checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, Button calls, Fnord calls, BB raises, MP1 calls, Button calls, Fnord calls.
Turn: (12.50 BB) 6 (4 players)
Fnord checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, Button calls, Fnord folds...
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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I play it the same, unfortunately.
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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Shark Bait
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
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ugh....now that's a real tough one. I'm debating in my head if I would fold this preflop, and I really can't decide.
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<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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My plan was to raise the Button's auto-bet on the flop if I flopped an over-pair. However, when the BB capped I knew I was SoL.
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bencathers
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Manhattan & Boston
Posts: 480
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I almost like a flop fold... but maybe its worth it for one more card on the turn. Great turn fold. I really don't think these guys are playing with KQ or AQ (like this) unless they are tilting
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Dealer: bencathers has two pair, Aces and Deuces
Dealer: Tbags has two pair, Kings and Jacks
Dealer: Tbags finished the tournament in 256th place
Tbags [observer]: another scumbag gets there on this site lol
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Tough one. But, if, based on the pre-flop action we decide that we need to hit a J to win (or a strong draw), then shouldn't it be an easy fold on the flop? Why wait until the turn? The over-card and no J on the flop plus the pre-flop action likely means a two-outer situation at best.
Without your reads that the pre-flop rasiers are TAGS, it would just be too weak to fold your jacks to just one over-card on the flop, but you gotta trust your reads right?
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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I'd dump it on the turn having not picked up half of my back door straight/flush draw or a set.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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You got implicitly colluded, sandwiched between the aggressors. Thats never fun.
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Phyl
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 396
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
Tough one. But, if, based on the pre-flop action we decide that we need to hit a J to win (or a strong draw), then shouldn't it be an easy fold on the flop? Why wait until the turn? The over-card and no J on the flop plus the pre-flop action likely means a two-outer situation at best.
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He has two backdoor draws and it's likely he'll see the turn for one bet as you can usually count on the loose/passive BB's overcall.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shark Bait
I'm debating in my head if I would fold this preflop, and I really can't decide.
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MP1 and button are both TAGs so button's 3-betting range is much too wide to fold JJ.
I think the hand was played well.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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if it was me i'd fold on the flop after BB's check/raise, which signaled he had AQ/KQ/QQ/KK/AA.
ChezJ
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
My plan was to raise the Button's auto-bet on the flop if I flopped an over-pair. However, when the BB capped I knew I was SoL.
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If you want to play on, bet the flop and hope BB will raise to clear the field. You do have weak backdoor straight/flush outs which need to be discounted for a Ah, Kh; not to mention the times you are against AK and your two J's aren't outs. I wouldn't like overcalling the flop here as well. I would fold this flop and save my chips for better spots in better position.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Room
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
My plan was to raise the Button's auto-bet on the flop if I flopped an over-pair. However, when the BB capped I knew I was SoL.
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If you want to play on, bet the flop and hope BB will raise to clear the field. You do have weak backdoor straight/flush outs which need to be discounted for a Ah, Kh; not to mention the times you are against AK and your two J's aren't outs. I wouldn't like overcalling the flop here as well. I would fold this flop and save my chips for better spots in better position. |
very good point on your set "outs"
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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I don’t even understand the debate. Of course, I recently switched from NL so it may just be that I don’t get Limit yet. In NL I would rarely go past the flop if I didn’t have TP. The only time you do is when you have lots of outs to beat TP and the pot odds to do so. In this case you are not TP and you are drawing to a two outer. Why go past the flop? It seems black and white to me.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EricE
Why go past the flop? It seems black and white to me.
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There are 17sb in the pot and there has been mad action.
Let me put it this way, if there was $1,000,000 in the pot, would you fold? Quite often in limit you're a slave to pot size.
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by EricE
Why go past the flop? It seems black and white to me.
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There are 17sb in the pot and there has been mad action.
Let me put it this way, if there was $1,000,000 in the pot, would you fold? Quite often in limit you're a slave to pot size. |
So its a mixure of implied odds and pot odds that make it debatable. Thank you. Sometimes the gems of a thread have to be spelled out. (well, for me they always have to be spelled out.  )
Edit:
I was actually struggling with this last night. I was most often NOT hitting the board. Because of this I folded a few hands on the flop/turn when I was getting odds to draw ( I believe they were overcard hands). In retrospect I think I was trading short term gain (well, less loss) for long term loss. If I am getting odds to draw then I should take it even though it is costing me money to do so.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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hmmmm
I could see dumping it on the flop. Yes, the pot size has you basically enslaved, but you can figure on having to call two bets to see the turn (that check-raise was utterly predictable), and you've really only got backdoor draws that mean anything. And worse, a lot of your outs for the backdoors are probably tied up in opponents' hands, AND your backdoor flush draw may mean less than nothing, AND those two jacks may help someone else as much as they help you. It's not a definite fold at all, but you could make a case for it - even though it's just one bet when you make that first call.
I think you've actually got even less of a chance to make a winning hand than "two backdoor draws and two outs" would ordinarily imply, and with the furious action you're definitely going to showdown with at least one player, maybe more.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
(that check-raise was utterly predictable)
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Really?
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
(that check-raise was utterly predictable)
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Really? |
To me it was, although I freely admit I've played a lot less limit than you. BB caps - after two prior raises, neither one his - and then checks the flop? That's unbelievably bizarre behavior, even for someone you describe as loose/passive, unless he's planning to check-raise. He's either trapping or wants to rep that he's trapping. Speaking of which, I would love to see how this one panned out, and what they all held. As soon as the BB checked the flop I would suspect him for QQ, TT, AA with the ace of hearts, or two hearts (AK probably), and the check-raise would confirm it. Now he *could* have other hands, and he *could* check/call the flop - I just wouldn't expect it.
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