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Where did I go so wrong with this hand?

  
 
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Old 07-28-2008, 11:01 AM     Post subject: Where did I go so wrong with this hand? #1 (permalink)  
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PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, J.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) K, 5, 4 (6 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T (3 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) Q (3 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Raise the flop? Call down as played?
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Fnord
Old 07-28-2008, 11:09 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Got any clue who these guys are?

I would have raised the turn and checked behind on the river.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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DrivingDog
Old 07-28-2008, 11:46 AM #3 (permalink)  
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I think we're strong enough to raise the turn for value.

I'm not as sure about checking behind on the river. I can see both sides. On the one hand, what's pulled ahead of us here that is still in the hand on the turn? AcJc, QcTc, Jc9c that's about it. KQ will also like that river.

OTOH, it would really suck to get c/'rd on the river, that's for sure. Also not clear what will call the turn raise and pay off on the river - Kx maybe. Then again micro limit guys are payoff specialists...

So I guess I'm saying raise the turn, flip a coin on the river to bet or check behind. Meh, I probably lean towards betting. Don't ask me what I do if we get c/r'd though.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Old 07-28-2008, 11:50 AM #4 (permalink)  
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If I raise the turn I'm bet/folding the river

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Got any clue who these guys are?
my HUD takes ten years to update so I don't have stats usually
I might have to mess with the settings so it updates faster

what settings do you recommend for poker ace hud (assuming you don't use PT3)
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Ragnar4
Old 07-28-2008, 02:23 PM #5 (permalink)  
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A raise on the flop may have gotten a re-raise out of the UTG and you'd have gotten a LOT more information.

Not to mention he may have re-raised and gotten UTG off the hand.

As played, it's pretty thin either way you sell it. HU I call down, I don't hate a fold here. but I don't like it either.

Something just really stinks about sb's play, but I refuse to put him on 2 pair and I don't know why. It just seems backwards for a low limit player. So I think I call down because UTG would have raised with a straight, and at this level UTG may be mentally retarded. And SB is representing a made hand without raisint from the Blind.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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DrivingDog
Old 07-28-2008, 02:24 PM #6 (permalink)  
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The problem with bet/folding the river is that there just aren't that many plausible hands that beat us. So it really smells like a desperate bluff, and you're getting something like 9:1 at that point.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Old 07-28-2008, 02:29 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by DrivingDog
The problem with bet/folding the river is that there just aren't that many plausible hands that beat us. So it really smells like a desperate bluff, and you're getting something like 9:1 at that point.
Trust me, when you get check/raised you're beat. Especially at these limits where no one folds to a check/raise on the river.
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Ragnar4
Old 07-28-2008, 02:33 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Bet/Fold is pretty tough to accomplish after you raise on the turn because you have no information as to how SB is going to react to being raised at this point.

You may raise and he pops you back. No way you're bet/folding the river then.

Besides a strong enough draw didn't come in for Bet/Fold to even be profitable here did it? Gutshot's don't exactly instill "call down fear" in marginal hand holders.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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Chopper
Old 07-28-2008, 03:00 PM #9 (permalink)  
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i play it different..assuming no reads...

on Btn, this is a raise for me at this level. no one is going anywhere and no one had enough to raise themselves, so i likely have the better hand/most equity pf...so i raise it up because my hand also does well in multi-way hands. i may kick out trash in blinds, too.

flop i call. no sense in bloating a flushy, semi-coordinated board w/o two of that suit when no one is folding for one more small bet. call behind is fine, imo.

turn, however, is where i raise. the didnt likely help anyone i am ahead of, and it may have coolered ATc in, etc. 67, two clubs, Ahi still arent going anywhere when i spring the raise. only ragged 2pair hands and passive big K's are a threat now. you are likely best on this flop, AND turn was sort of a brick, so you are still likely best. with one card to come, get some money in there.

i likely get checked to on river, and i can c/b or valuebet. i like the valuebet line because a naked Q will call now, too. AJ shouldnt be there because AJ should have raised pf. but, it wouldnt surprise me, but i cant see it being SB here. and, UTG would have raised river.

you should be good here, unless the donkey stakes got you with some of that stupid, unpredictable crap that always shows down.

i think raising the flop, fwiw, is pretty spewy because it serves to bloat a pot for draws more, allowing them to play correctly on turn. this is worse than any information it provides. this is 25/50c where the players sometimes will 3bet AXc here, but mostly will call a raise. they just dont give up info without monsters. and a moderate one pair hand cant afford to "raise for info" on this board.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Jibalob
Old 07-28-2008, 04:59 PM #10 (permalink)  
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You could have raised any street before the river to take control of this hand allowing a check behind on the river assuming it is still 3-handed.

The river fold is sick
PLEASE READ ULTIMATE BET THREAD IN "ONLINE POKER ROOMS" FORUM
Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]
 
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Chopper
Old 07-28-2008, 05:42 PM #11 (permalink)  
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i didnt even see the river fold.

iopq, AT THESE STAKES, stop making these folds on rivers. you were getting 9.5:1 again. that means you only need to be correct 10.5% of the time. i can tell you these players are at least that stupid.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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epic
Old 07-28-2008, 06:41 PM #12 (permalink)  

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epic
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
The problem with bet/folding the river is that there just aren't that many plausible hands that beat us. So it really smells like a desperate bluff, and you're getting something like 9:1 at that point.
Trust me, when you get check/raised you're beat. Especially at these limits where no one folds to a check/raise on the river.
Heh-not always. Last nigh I played a 500-hand session (same limit at PS) where, at least 5 times (5 different people), I was check/raised, I re-raised, and the person folded.

I wouldn't say it's common for that to happen...but neither is it uncommon. I find a lot of people trying to play limit just like NL-they're pressing draws too hard, continuation betting with nothing...and it often turns out to be very proftable in my favor.
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KoRnholio
Old 07-28-2008, 07:07 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 I like a turn raise too.

As played I call river. UTG seems to be desperately hoping his weak pp or king is good (perhaps a rivered Q with Qcxc). I'm not worried at all about him having us beat with his line, so it's really not like most overcalling spots on the river where we need a great hand.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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Old 07-29-2008, 06:09 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Chopper
i didnt even see the river fold.

iopq, AT THESE STAKES, stop making these folds on rivers. you were getting 9.5:1 again. that means you only need to be correct 10.5% of the time. i can tell you these players are at least that stupid.
yeah I know, but the fact that it was multihanded at the river made me rethink it
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