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when to slowplay HU?

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DrivingDog

08-22-2007, 12:15 PM Post subject: when to slowplay HU?

#1 (permalink)

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When do you guys think it is good to slowplay a strong but not great hand HU, assuming an opponent with average skill?

For example, when you raise preflop from UTG and only the BB calls.
My strategy here against typical opposition has been to check behind or just call on the flop whenever i have top pair Q or better as long as there isn't more than one good draw available. E.g., if I have AQ and the flop is QJT with two spades i would bet or raise, but if it's Q72 with two spades i would normally check behind or just call a bet, and if it's Q72 rainbow i'd definitely check or call.

My rationale is that a decent player is not going to bet or call a flop he's completely whiffed (which will generally happen more often than not). So better to give him a chance to hit a draw or pair on the turn or (if the board is really ragged) check the turn as well and hope he hits a pair on the river.

Sometimes this seems to work out as my opponent finally hits his middle pair on the river and bets out or calls after i've checked the flop and turn. On the other hand, it is pretty annoying when he hits a runner runner straight and c/r's the river!

In blind wars, i like to slowplay with middle pair T or better, especially with position. If you check the flop, there is a reasonable chance the SB will bet the turn with nothing and you stand to gain more than just betting the flop and having him fold.

Any thoughts? Obviously this strategy must be tempered by the opponent you're facing, but in general does it seem alright? Am i missing too much value by not betting out strong hands and hoping for calls?

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dsaxton

08-22-2007, 04:19 PM

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This is a very bad strategy. Your opponents are going to be calling or raising with a wide range for one bet on the flop; not giving them the opportunity to when you have a strong hand is going to cost you a lot of money.

Suppose your opponent is holding 6-7 on a Q, 3, 2 flop when you hold A-Q. Obviously the perfect play is probably to check the flop to induce a bluff on the turn. But, against the overwhelming majority of players, the perfect play is barely better than simply betting the flop (since he almost never puts any money in the pot postflop regardless of what you do). However, if he has Q-J, then checking the flop is far worse than betting out, since you will be in a position to collect many bets from this player on the flop by betting. When betting is either slightly wrong or very right, you should bet.

Another consideration is that betting both your strong and weak hands here discourages readability. If you are consistently checking your good hands in this spot, your opponents can make marginal call-downs or check-raise you with complete confidence. It is better if you are always betting in this position regardless of your hole cards, so that your opponents will be forced to make mistakes no matter what they have.

Fnord

08-22-2007, 04:57 PM

#3 (permalink)

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LHE isn't a game where it's productive to slow play.
Most of your money in LHE isn't made by monster hands.

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DrivingDog

08-22-2007, 07:00 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

I see this point, but think there are also times when you gain by giving them a chance to catch a draw or hit a pair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Suppose your opponent is holding 6-7 on a Q, 3, 2 flop when you hold A-Q. Obviously the perfect play is probably to check the flop to induce a bluff on the turn. But, against the overwhelming majority of players, the perfect play is barely better than simply betting the flop (since he almost never puts any money in the pot postflop regardless of what you do). However, if he has Q-J, then checking the flop is far worse than betting out, since you will be in a position to collect many bets from this player on the flop by betting. When betting is either slightly wrong or very right, you should bet.

Well, I did say against opponents with 'average' skill. What average opponent calls an UTG raise with 7 high in the BB? If i see someone doing that I don't give them any credit for being being able to tie their own shoes, never mind play smart after the flop, and i don't slowplay them ever. I'm talking about people who will call with maybe JT, 66, or better. True, they may also call a flop raise on a Q32 flop but when i check the flop they're more likely to put me on a weak hand, which can pay dividends later if they pick up a draw or hit middle pair, or decide to bluff.

Further, the chances that you and your opponent will share a card AND that it will be top pair on the flop are pretty slim (even if it's an Ace). And so what if it happens and you check the flop? Unless an overcard comes he's gonna think he has you crushed and you collect a lot of bets on the turn and river, whereas if you'd jammed the flop, he may just c/c the turn and river, depending on his kicker.

I've seen a couple times where the flop comes something like Q72 and i check my AQ, a T hits on the turn and my opponent bets out, i raise and he calls or sometimes re-raises. A blank on the river, and i call or raise the river. He turns over KQ, KJ, KT, AT, QJ, etc., and I haul in a nice pot. Whereas if i'd raised him on the flop, he'd be more likely to fold some of those hands on the flop and c/c the turn and river with the others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Another consideration is that betting both your strong and weak hands here discourages readability. If you are consistently checking your good hands in this spot, your opponents can make marginal call-downs or check-raise you with complete confidence. It is better if you are always betting in this position regardless of your hole cards, so that your opponents will be forced to make mistakes no matter what they have.

You're absolutely right. I should have said before that i don't always check top pair Q or better, maybe half the time, and never against a fish, and I don't always c-bet when i catch air.

I know it's standard to c-bet all your hands after you've raised preflop in position HU, but c-betting 100% of the time to me is just saying 'i had a good hand before the flop (they knew that), there's maybe a 50-50 chance the flop hit me or i have a big pp or two overcards (they know that too), so please fold (this is pretty clear as well). If you do that every time the flop misses you then when it does hit your opponent you're going to be paying one or more bets without much chance when you could be getting a free card that might actually give you a hand worth betting or at least a card that you can bluff with. Personally, i love guys who c-bet 100% of the time cause when i catch anything i can c/r them and be reasonably confident i'm ahead.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

bigspenda73

08-22-2007, 07:42 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Most of your money in LHE isn't made by monster hands.

QFT and something people really don't understand. TPTK makes the same money as sets/flushes in limit.

Unibomber14

08-22-2007, 08:23 PM

#6 (permalink)

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I find that the average player is not that good. Just bet. You lose value more often than you gain it by slowplaying (I play NL, and this concept is exponentially more significant short term. However, I can see how this would apply more to long term ROI% in LHE.)

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DrivingDog

08-22-2007, 08:26 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

TPTK makes the same money as sets/flushes in limit.

Not to be glib, but this is kinda my point. TPTK is a very strong hand HU and unlikely to be drawn out on on a flop where there's one or fewer draws available, and one or fewer overcards.

I'm not convinced my strategy is right but i'm not convinced it's wrong either, so any arguments giving reasons are appreciated. I might argue back but that doesn't mean i'm not listening or trying to understand other views.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

euphoricism

08-22-2007, 08:35 PM

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The only slowplaying you should even consider making is in this spot:

You flop hard on a dry board. Villain checkraises flop, you call and raise his auto-turn bet.

That line happens pretty regularly.

You should almost NEVER check through the turn with the best hand

(I didnt read the thread)

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dsaxton

08-22-2007, 09:12 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I often won't even slowplay the flop when I have a monster and get check-raised by a passive player. He almost always has what in his mind is a strong hand, and will sometimes even cap if you 3-bet his check-raise. Even if he just calls and check-calls the turn, you have only cost yourself one small bet, assuming he wouldn't have folded to a turn raise. Also, I will sometimes do this with drawing hands, so my opponent is forced either to give me undue action when I have a strong hand, or lay down to my semi-bluffs.

The situation where I like to do a lot of slow-playing is when I'm heads-up against a very aggressive player who has the lead and usually maintains it with or without a pair. In these situations I will wait for the turn to raise with most of my hands, particularly if I'm in position.

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