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Tripps7

01-31-2005, 06:36 PM Post subject: When to Fold?

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 130

Hey everyone I am still in the learning stages and I have been lurking for a while (and learning a lot) and this is my first post, hope everything comes over clean.

Ultimate Bet 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q

, A

.
4 folds, MP2 raises, MP3 3-bets, Hero calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) J

, A

, 6

(3 players)
MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) T

(3 players)
MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, MP2 raises, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 8

(3 players)
MP2 bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

Results in white below:
MP2 has Kh Qc (straight, ace high).
MP3 has Ah Ad (three of a kind, aces).
Hero has Qh As (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP2 wins 17.25 BB.

Now before you guys let me know how terrible I played this hand, I know I played this hand terribly. I was just wondering at what point should I lay this down. I know the call on the river was wrong and probably calling the initial bet on the turn. I was up over 200% at this table and I was getting a little loose and sloppy (I left right after this hand). So when should have I folded?

Not calling the 3 bets cold pre-flop?
After the raise on the flop?
After Getting bet into on the turn?

I know that holding on to AQ, AK, AA, KK too long in multiway action is a leak in my game and I am trying to tighten that up.

Oh:

Mp3 is loose, semi-passive
Mp2 just sat down about 3 hands previous. My initial impression was LAggy

Thanks for any comments. Please don't hold back...

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gabe

01-31-2005, 07:04 PM

#2 (permalink)

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what was your read on these two players? if i didnt have a read i would fold preflop with AQo.

mike4066

01-31-2005, 07:06 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2003

Posts: 1,943

Preflop: I can't see calling 3cold on the flop with this hand, i would have mucked it here.
Flop: looks fine to me.
Turn:That turn CR gets me too often, tend to call down from here but I'm trying to figure out when I need to lay down here.

If you look at the stickies in the Limit section fnord has one posted that says.

"When 3 or more broadway cards are on an unpaired board, top pair is in trouble. "
that holds true here, you have check raises from 2 different people in this hand.

|~|ypermegachi

01-31-2005, 07:06 PM

#4 (permalink)

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folding this river would be a leak in your game!

you are getting 16.25:1 odds to call this river! which means you only need to beat the other 2 players more than 5% of the time to show a long term profit!

you need to 3bet the flop to see if a cap comes back at you, and then decide if you still want to chuck it on the turn.

koolmoe

01-31-2005, 08:29 PM Post subject: Re: When to Fold?

#5 (permalink)

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Location: Drowning in prosperity

Posts: 1,279

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tripps7

Not calling the 3 bets cold pre-flop?

Bingo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tripps7

Mp3 is loose, semi-passive

There's why.

elipsesjeff

01-31-2005, 09:18 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Fold preflop. I am going to go out and say never cold-call a 3bet preflop, unless you have AA and you want to disguise your hand (semi-advanced play)

Well, you made the value bet okay, you almost have to call the raise here.

The turn you picked up a gutshot draw, while being stuck in the middle of two raisors you ended up getting 7-1 on your draw which is not good, when you called the first one you were only getting 10-1, which is still marginal

Well, you have to call the river.

I think the mistake you made preflop dictated the rest of this hand. The pot was so large you were forced to call down the entire way. Folding preflop saves some bets here.

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Fnord

02-01-2005, 08:57 AM

#7 (permalink)

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One raise from EP/MP is usually enough to get me to let go of AQo. Calling 3 cold is silly.

AQo is clearly a hand you want to 3-bet or fold. It your read on the guy's raising standards from that position isn't strong enough, FOLD!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

gutshot

02-01-2005, 03:19 PM

#8 (permalink)

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I can't tell you how many times I would fold preflop. All of the time and twice on Sunday should do.

-jay

"i think the biggest leak in my game is using 2nd level thinking against players who can't think on the first level." -Renton

Tripps7

02-01-2005, 04:09 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 130

Well the consensus is fold pre-flop. This confirms my susupicions that I have been overvaluing AQo

Thanks for all the input.

What about AQs? Does anyone stay in preflop then?

|~|ypermegachi

02-01-2005, 04:21 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,580

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tripps7

Well the consensus is fold pre-flop. This confirms my susupicions that I have been overvaluing AQo

Thanks for all the input.

What about AQs? Does anyone stay in preflop then?

that's still a muck. with just 2 opponents your flush possibility doesn't add much value to your hand. if it was capped with 3 or 4 other players than i think it's worth a flop.

ChezJ

02-04-2005, 08:53 PM

#11 (permalink)

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yes, AQ is definitely not as strong as you think. if one guy raises, you have to put him on something like AK/AQ. when the second guy raises, you have to put him on something like AA/KK/QQ. now how will you ever catch up with the first guy, much less the second? ask yourself what flop you need to win... QQx and no aces? highly improbable.

doyle brunson said he never plays AQ b/c it is too easily dominated.

it's a beauty in an unraised pot, for sure, but otherwise save your chips for a better opportunity.

ChezJ

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