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When aggression gets me in trouble

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Shark Bait

08-02-2005, 05:08 AM Post subject: When aggression gets me in trouble

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

Seems like heavy aggression usually makes me lose a lot more. My agression factor is currently at 1.43 and apparently it should be higher, but I just don't see how it could be higher while making money, mostly because of hands like these:

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A

, K

.
UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13.40 SB) 5

, Q

, 6

(6 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, CO caps, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (13.70 BB) 3

(3 players)
UTG checks, CO bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (16.70 BB) J

(3 players)
UTG checks, CO bets, Hero folds, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 18.70 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has As 7s (high card, ace).
CO has Qc 6c (two pair, queens and sixes).
Outcome: CO wins 18.70 BB.

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q

, Q

.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, CO raises, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO caps, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (18 SB) 3

, 3

, 4

(4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO raises, Hero calls, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) K

(3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 folds, CO raises, Hero calls.

River: (16.50 BB) 6

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Qd Qs (two pair, queens and threes).
CO has Kc Kh (full house, kings full of threes).
Outcome: CO wins 18.50 BB.

I'm guessing a lot of you will suggest that I fold somewhere with these hands, but where? Trying to keep the aggression high, I rarely call so I don't see how I can play these right without betting or raising.

I've heard that folding a missed AKo on the flop is weak...so how much does it have to miss until it should get tossed?

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Shark Bait

08-02-2005, 05:28 AM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

I was able to play this one a little bit differently. I had planned to check/fold on the turn and river. Comments?

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K

, A

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, CO calls, 3 folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 7

, 4

, 5

(3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 9

(3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

River: (5.70 BB) 6

(3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 5.70 BB

Results in white below:
MP2 has Kc Ts (high card, king).
Hero has Kd Ac (high card, ace).
CO has As 6s (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: CO wins 5.70 BB.

<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!

Nehmer

08-02-2005, 05:40 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Decatur, IL

Posts: 666

I fold the flop in hand 1. The pot is fairly big, but vs a bet and a raise with multiple people(including the original better) left to act behind you meaning possible reraises, somebody has that Q and you can't count yourself as having 6 outs. Folding AK unimproved on the flop for 1 bet is definately weak, but in a situation like this where it's already been raised before the action gets to you, there is no point sticking around.

In hand 2, I 3-bet the flop and see what happens from there.

Fnord

08-02-2005, 07:12 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Hand 1: Just let it go on the flop.
Hand 2: 3-bet the flop.
Hand 3: Bet the turn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Shark Bait

08-02-2005, 07:16 AM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nehmer

Another missed AKo...but I believe I followed your advice here. A little different since it was on the turn, so probably more of an obvious fold.

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A

, K

.
3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (15 SB) 3

, 8

, 3

(5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.

Turn: (9 BB) 9

(3 players)
SB bets, BB raises, Hero folds, SB calls.

River: (13 BB) 2

(2 players)
SB checks, BB bets, SB folds.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Results in white below:
BB doesn't show.
Outcome: BB wins 14 BB.

I was about to say something about my AK missing everytime tonight, but while I was typing this I got it and hit top 2 pair.

It was against a guy that I had just beaten the hand before and I guess he didn't believe me.

<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!

Shark Bait

08-02-2005, 07:27 AM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

I think the most important thing you guys are telling me here is to not 3-bet just because I have AK, but no piece of the flop. Sometimes I let this goal of a 2.0 aggression factor get into my head.

I was going to make a thread about this sometime, but I suppose I could just ask here...

Is a 2.0 aggression factor really important? I'm hanging around 1.5 right now and I kind of feel that that's about right for the low limits that I'm playing at.

There are several times where I believe I have pot odds to call a bet, but raising would just be throwing chips around. I admit that I have made the mistake of calling down with a mediocre hand that usually loses, but I think there are times (especially on the flop) where dumping the aggression and just calling is worth it.

<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!

Fnord

08-02-2005, 09:51 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Focus on hands but not numbers.

As you get better at this game you tend to find spots where you can raise or fold instead of call more often, then you re-discover that calling is ok too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

A10Chief

08-02-2005, 10:26 AM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Germany

Posts: 285

I understand why you should fold the first one at the flop, but hand 2 looks a lot like the way I would have played it, hence my waning bankroll. Explain why you should 3-bet the flop, and when you should dump this hand.

There's three types of people in the world...those who can count, and those who can't.

08-02-2005, 11:02 AM

#9 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Let's see, you have an overpair to the board and the cards are low, so the possibility of trips is slightly lower...
Anyway, you should reraise with an overpair to the flop 99% of the time

Unless the situation is very specific

Oh well, looked at the white part
he might have had AK or JJ anyway

I had someone raise me on a jack high flop with a pair of tens... I had just made a set of jacks... yeah some people go a little far

elipsesjeff

08-02-2005, 07:32 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

Is a 2.0 aggression factor really important? I'm hanging around 1.5 right now and I kind of feel that that's about right for the low limits that I'm playing at.

Make sure you dont have preflop numbers in your calculations. Otherwise a 2.0 agg factor is pretty easy to get. Stop checking behind the river as much when you are ahead and it will bring it up some.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

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Shark Bait

08-02-2005, 08:31 PM

#11 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

Not including preflop my aggression is 2.80

I've always though that you should inluding preflop when talking about the aggression factor though.

<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!

Fnord

08-02-2005, 08:36 PM

#12 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

I've always though that you should inluding preflop when talking about the aggression factor though.

Nahh... the post-flop number is more interesting. How many hands you happen to like to over-limp behind bad players has little to do with post-flop aggression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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