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What would your river play be?

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dsaxton

01-02-2006, 06:38 AM Post subject: What would your river play be?

#1 (permalink)

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No read on this player other than that he was somewhat passive, but not to the point of being a calling station. He was mostly just a timid player.

If he had called here on 6th street, is it better to check or bet on the river when I fail to improve, and why?

PokerStars Game #3507356638: 7 Card Stud Limit ($5/$10) - 2006/01/02 - 02:31:59 (ET)
Table 'Nephthys'
Seat 1: dsaxton ($179.50 in chips)
Seat 3: blackshark ($50.50 in chips)
Seat 5: 5inthehole ($477.75 in chips)
Seat 7: Nofxx ($285.50 in chips)
dsaxton: posts the ante $0.50
blackshark: posts the ante $0.50
5inthehole: posts the ante $0.50
Nofxx: posts the ante $0.50
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to dsaxton [Ad Kh Jh]
Dealt to blackshark [Qs]
Dealt to 5inthehole [7c]
Dealt to Nofxx [2d]
Nofxx: brings-in low $2
dsaxton: raises $3 to $5
blackshark: folds
5inthehole: folds
Nofxx: calls $3
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to dsaxton [Ad Kh Jh] [Ts]
Dealt to Nofxx [2d] [7d]
dsaxton: bets $5
Nofxx: calls $5
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to dsaxton [Ad Kh Jh Ts] [Td]
Dealt to Nofxx [2d 7d] [7s]
dsaxton: bets $10
Nofxx: calls $10
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to dsaxton [Ad Kh Jh Ts Td] [6s]
Dealt to Nofxx [2d 7d 7s] [6h]
dsaxton: bets $10
Nofxx: folds
dsaxton collected $40 from pot
dsaxton: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $42 | Rake $2
Seat 1: dsaxton collected ($40)
Seat 3: blackshark folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 5: 5inthehole folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Nofxx folded on the 6th Street

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TLR

01-03-2006, 06:55 AM

#2 (permalink)

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TLR is an unknown quantity at this point

I would bet. You led out all the way and he called, so he thinks he is behind and is trying to improve, I think that if he fails to improve on the river he would fold.

ihategnomes

01-04-2006, 07:25 AM

#3 (permalink)

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So if he only calls a river bet when he improves then betting doesnt make sense. By betting you open yourself to being raised on 7th with only a pair of T's. checking with the intention of call might make more sense in the long run as you might be able to induce a bluff some percentage of the time. If your not getting a worse hand to call that is.

Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude

TLR

01-04-2006, 09:05 AM

#4 (permalink)

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[quate]So if he only calls a river bet when he improves then betting doesnt make sense. [/quate]
Unless you are behind and can push him off with betting

dsaxton

01-04-2006, 09:33 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ihategnomes

I think you're misunderstanding. I'm wondering if it's better to bet the river as a bluff (a river bet is never for value in this situation, since he can't call with a worse hand unless he's retarded), or check hoping that he checks behind with just a pair of 7's. I would obviously fold immediately if he raised.

ihategnomes

01-04-2006, 04:10 PM

#6 (permalink)

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You cant push people of hands in 7th street in stud, it doesnt work that way.

Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude

ihategnomes

01-04-2006, 04:11 PM

#7 (permalink)

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I wasnt misunderstanding at all, I was replying to TLR's post. If you cant get a worse hand to call then betting river seems pointless. Check the river.

Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude

TLR

01-05-2006, 06:10 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ihategnomes

I wasnt misunderstanding at all, I was replying to TLR's post. If you cant get a worse hand to call then betting river seems pointless. Check the river.

I think you misunderstood my intention with betting here:

There are a 3 possible scenarios:
1. He cannot beat the pair of T's showing - in this case he is folding to a bet, but even if you dont bet you win the pot. Betting gives you the advantage of not showing your hand.
2. He has weak two pair, and the river did not complete his boat - in this case I think you take the pot down by betting, and lose by checking
3. He has a strong hand - in this case he his either reraising or calling, if he reraises you fold, if he calls you are beat.

If he does not improve with the river card scenario 1 or 2 are much more common then 3 I think, therefore a bet makes sense

dsaxton

01-05-2006, 07:24 AM

#9 (permalink)

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If I bet the river, I'm representing jacks up, a hand he might actually give me credit for. If he has a four flush and a pair of 7's on 6th (which seems fairly likely), he might accidentally make a small two pair on the river which he would be willing to fold facing a bet fearing he's up against jacks up.

Pelion

01-05-2006, 01:00 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Ive never been able to figure out exactly what "Jacks Up" means. Is it 2 pair where the highest is jacks?

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

TLR

01-05-2006, 01:03 PM

#11 (permalink)

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[quate]Ive never been able to figure out exactly what "Jacks Up" means. Is it 2 pair where the highest is jacks?[/quate]

Yep

ihategnomes

01-05-2006, 03:35 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Hes not folding a small two pair after calling all the way down to the 7th street. Thus, your not getting a better hand to fold and as you guys stated a better hand is not calling. So how is betting again good on 7th here?

Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude

dsaxton

01-05-2006, 07:36 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ihategnomes

(It's worth noting that I had been playing tight this session.)

By calling with two small pair on the river, he can only win if I'm bluffing. How likely is it that a cautious, conservative player would make this call when he can only beat an unlikely bluff?

If checking with the intention of calling is a good play (which you suggested), then it would seem that betting would be a better play, since you will almost always lose a bet when he makes two pair. This means that you lose nothing by betting with the intention of folding to a raise trying to get him to fold two pair, since you would have generally lost the same bet check-calling, but by betting you're giving yourself a chance to win the pot when he has two pair.

Pelion

01-07-2006, 11:05 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Your board looks pretty strong there. what makes you think he will bet if you check. I think he checks here with 2 pair most of the time because he is either winning (to your single pair) in which case you probably fold to a bet, or you will call him with your better 2 pair.

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

ihategnomes

01-07-2006, 05:00 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Read page 171 of Theory of Poker. Maybe it will make more sense when coming from someone that you might believe.

Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude

dsaxton

01-08-2006, 06:03 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ihategnomes

Read page 171 of Theory of Poker. Maybe it will make more sense when coming from someone that you might believe.

In the first paragraph he says you should usually continue bluffing if you have ace high after the last card and have been semi-bluffing, then in the second he says you shouldn't if you have a small pair. He makes an arbitrary distinction between having ace high and having a small pair while both are legitimate bluffing hands.

ihategnomes

01-10-2006, 04:30 PM

#17 (permalink)

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You bluff the A since it has no way of winning at the showdown, but the small pair can hold up.

Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude

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