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bigspenda73
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07-20-2006, 04:06 PM
Post subject: What is this play?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I have been playing a ton of hands lately at some small limits online and there is one play that is really starting to get on my nerves. I find a big pair on or near the button and raise, everyone of course calls as it is just one small bet to the BB and the limpers. The flop will come A rag rag and someone in early position will ALWAYS lead at it before it comes back to me. Now, i raised preflop representing a big hand most likely a big ace and I cannot even get it checked back to me. Anyone else see this play ever? Does it typically mean a flush draw or a bad ace? I have not been able to figure it out. I keep raising these bettors and they continually just call. They will then LEAD AT THE TURN. What is this? Are the players just this bad? I need to know what my optimal play is on the flop when this happens, should I raise with my QQ when AXX flops or do I need to just give up?
Thanks for any advice
'spenda
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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It's called donking into the pf raiser and is usually done by a player who has caught a piece (in this case the ace) ~or~ one who thinks it has missed you, but this is less likely at micro limits. If I have a weak ace and one comes on the flop, I want to know if you have one. If I check to you and let you bet, I have no way of knowing that. But if I bet I expect a strong ace to raise or at least call, and if you don't have an ace I expect you to fold. Your action needs to be based on your reads on your opponent. If a player hasn't raised preflop his ace usually isn't strong and you can usually push a tight player off with a healthy raise ~but~ at micro limits they'll call you to the river more often than not, so folding is usually the better option.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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Giving up is too weak/tight.
Raise the Flop to get it HU or as close to HU as you can with the Donk to see what he will do next. If he keeps donking, call it down HU (fold turn against an overcall or fold the river after a caller on the turn UI) and if he has an Ace, so be it. If he checks the turn, bet a coordinated board in case of a draw, fold to a checkraise unless you have pot odds. If the board is uncoordinated, check the turn, call a river donkbet.
You need a read on the player to determine what the Donk means, so when he does it, take notes. As for general examples of what the donk means, against a TAG, it might be a bet/fold line but out of the blinds it is usually a drawing hand. A loose passive fish that calls the raise and donks the turn has a hand almost every time.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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Vrax
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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It may be ace or not but raising is better than calling because you must protect your hand ahainst other players if it is the best hand. If pot is big raising is the best option, you must grit your teeth and hope for best. Lots of times donkbettor has draw, piece of board or TT-ish hand and you have odds to look him up.
Bob Ciaffone described that situation in Cardplayer, where losing bets and protecting is smaller mistake than calling , giving odds to suckout and losing entire pot against some weirdo backdoor draw holder, not original flop bettor. Also SSH book harps on that topic in many chapters.
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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