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What kind of notes to keep??

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lzfsb3

08-10-2006, 01:25 PM Post subject: What kind of notes to keep??

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Montrose, Michigan

Posts: 15

What kind of notes should I be keeping on players? Right now i will put something like:
raised A/4 preflop.
Plays a lot of hands and gets lucky. Only go up against him with good hands.
Really loose, plays every hand.

That type of note. Can I really make a determination of a player on just a few hands? Do you put a note on every player or just ones that stand out? I play Micro-Limit Holdem on Titan and there are only a couple of tables in the morning so I will probably see same people over and over.
Do you keep notes on players at Party or Poker Stars even though site is so big and you may not see player again??

Thanks for the help in advance.

Wolverine Fan
"I don't know about the four 9's but I think the ace is pretty hot." -- George Clooney in Oceans Eleven
www.pokerandgolf.blogspot.com

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Nehmer

08-10-2006, 02:21 PM Post subject: Re: What kind of notes to keep??

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Decatur, IL

Posts: 666

Quote:

Originally Posted by lzfsb3

Plays a lot of hands and gets lucky. Only go up against him with good hands.

If somebody is playing too many hands, shouldn't you want to play more hands vs them?

As for your original question, I use Poker Tracker to keep track of who plays a lot of pots or raises a lot. I mostly use the notes for postflop information. Such as, "donks the flop only with good hands" or "plays draws too aggressively, but slowplays his monsters". The problem with the notes for me is that once I have taken a note if I play with that person enough for it to be effective, I generally remember the information on it anyway.

sinky

08-10-2006, 04:39 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: SCOTLAND

Posts: 295

lzfsb3,
From you comments it sounds like you don't have poker tracker. It will give you most of the preflop information you need about all your opponents. For postflop play you are really looking to note anything unusual that your opponent does. Here are 2 examples of reads that I feel are important ...

When I sit at a new table I want to know as quickly as possible if I have a "good" seat. I am looking to have loose passive opponents to my right and tight opponents to my left. Poker tracker will tell you how many hands they are playing / raising etc. but I am looking for 1 important thing regardless of the poker tracker stats. Do they respect raises (and fold) or do they repeatedly cold call with non-premium hands ?

Postflop one tough decision you often have to make is when you have a TPGK hand and are raised on the turn. I try and note what types of hands each opponent does this with. Is he is capable of bluffing, raising a weak TP or a draw ? Is he capable of raising 2 pair ? Or does he only raise with a set or better ?

I know I should take more notes, so I will be interested to see what further replies you get.

biondino

08-10-2006, 04:51 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

I think your first two notes could have a negative effect. For example, "raised A4 pre-flop" - in what position? Was it an open raise? These are vital pieces of info, without which the note is almost worthless. I'd actually have more use for "called/limped A4 pre-flop as that would be a stone cold sign that he's a fish/maniac.

Also: "Plays a lot of hands and gets lucky. Only go up against him with good hands." This is wrong on both counts. As Nehmer says, this should be a good thing - opportunities to take pots of him need to be exploited. Do you really mean "is a calling station"? That would make more sense re only playing good hands, but to me "plays a lot of hands" implies he has a high VP$IP. Be careful of confusing yourself.

Secondly, no-one "gets lucky" at poker in any meaningful, or long-term, sense. This note only has validity if you need to explain, say, why a bad player has an excellent BB/100. Even then, how does he get lucky? Flopping 44x on his A4 hand? Hitting gutshot draws? If it's the latter, did he hit them after calling with appalling odds? Or did he actually play the hand(s) well?

I hope this helps indicate why you have to be accurate and comprehensive with your notes. When they provide the reads for your game, having inaccurate notes can be catastrophic. I played a guy recently whose stats after 40 hands were something like 55/30. Only after 200 hands did I realise he'd been running incredibly hot initially and his actual stats were something like 25/15, i.e. a dangerous SLAg rather than a maniac.

Rondavu

08-10-2006, 04:57 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

Notes run the spectrum from simple to complex.

Here's a good one inregards to second barrells. Some good players will flop or turn a big hand, and if you were the preflop raiser, and the turn is paint, they will bet into you in hopes that you connected the turn. This is a pattern certain players have.

In other words, they look to lose fold equity so they can extract more value with a big hand. If you see a player check a flop or bet a flop weak, and then bet out the turn OOP strong when an A, K or Q arrives (especially), eventually showing down the winning hand or taking it without showdown, you will be able to fire second barrels against this player in the future when make cards come. You see, these kind of good players will float a lot of flops on you with next to nothing. When the turn is paint and they act weak, it's time for a second barrell, because they would have acted strong on the turn with a hand they want to show down. Good players build big pots no later than the turn if they want to take a sharkbite out of you.

This is one of many many things to think about. Just a sample. I wanted to demonstrate how complex reads can become, and how notes are just reminders of an entire thought process.

An example would be if you have 55 and the flop comes out 237. You continue, and get check raised by a good aggressive player. The turn brings an ace, and the opponent puts out a half pot bet. This is a spot to come right back over the top of them. They will fold their 88 or K7s, and often just air (for example) a lot in this spot. This is because if their hand was strong, they would try to committ you deep on that turn.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

lzfsb3

08-10-2006, 05:05 PM Post subject: Good input

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Montrose, Michigan

Posts: 15

Thanks for the input about notes. I see I need to be a lot more specific when I put a note on a player.
Don't get caught up in my examples as they were just that, examples, but please post some of the type of notes you keep would be helpful.

Also, do you keep notes on everyone or just a select few? Do you keep notes at big player sites like Party or Stars as you may not see the player again as opposed to smaller sites like Absolute or Titan where you may play with the same people over and over?
Very helpful so far, thanks a lot.

Wolverine Fan
"I don't know about the four 9's but I think the ace is pretty hot." -- George Clooney in Oceans Eleven
www.pokerandgolf.blogspot.com

Rondavu

08-10-2006, 05:13 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

Notes aren't your reads. Notes are like the red ribbon you tie to your finger, reminding you of a well developed thought process on patterns and strengths that you accumulate as your poker knowledge grows. In other words, notes can be the best notes ever, but they're wasted without the experience of knowing how to utilize them against the opponent.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

biondino

08-10-2006, 05:15 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

I am terrible - I rely heavily on Poker Tracker and GT+ stats and seldom make notes (I used to do it a lot more). It's mainly laziness - the simple act of clicking on people then typing. Bad biondino.

Ltrain

08-10-2006, 06:03 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Miami, Florida

Posts: 514

Here are a few examples of specific notes I will take in a session:
- Donks flop with hit low pair
- Bets flop only with draw
-checkraises flop with TPGK
-checkraises flop with air
-checkraises turn with semi-bluf OESD
-coldcalls with mid pockets
- calls down with naked ace high
- calls down with low pair
- P: any suited
-Raise turn w/ TPTK, no redraw
- FOS, calldown

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.

thenonsequitur

08-10-2006, 07:16 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Location: Location

Posts: 637

I take notes on anything that seems note-worthy. I guess that a tautology though. By the end of every session, I usually have notes on about half the people I played with. And yes, I take notes even at big sites like PartyPoker. You'd be surprised how many people you see coming back. A note can be helpful, even if you only see the person one or two more times.

I opened up my PartyPoker Notes.txt file. It's pretty big, I have thousands of entries. I selected a couple dozen at random to demonstrate the kind of notes I take (each note is for a different player):

-----------------------------------------------------------------

raised preflop with AA in EP, got 4 callers, flopped an A, and then checked the flop.

VERY passive. sb calls, he checked from the bb with KK. board comes Q96J3 (only the final three coordinated in suit) and he checked the whole way, including the river

saw him flop JQQ while holding AQ...check/called the flop and donked the turn

raises/caps with 22-JJ. limps/calls with QQ+.

on a board of QQJ7K checkraised a TAG on both the flop and the turn with A8o

defends his blinds strongly. i raised from the button, sb folded, this guy 3-bet A3o from the BB.

very aggressive.
had A2 and flopped bottom pair with a Q and T on flop. and he capped the flop.
EP raises, 2 cold callers, he 3-bet from the SB with J9o

a raise from the BB against a large field usually means he has a suited connecter

will cap the flop OOP heads up with a flush draw

with several people in the pot, he 3-bet a gutshot draw on the turn

plays very passively
had AA, and just called every street, including preflop.
board was somewhat scary, but not amazingly so

seems capable of folding to a river raise on a scare card

capped preflop with QQ from EP then checked on a flop of QA9

i open-raised from the CO and he cold called 87o from the button

will call down with any pair
basically never raises

in 50 hands, i saw him open-raise from EP with 46o, 39o, and J2o

called down to the river with nothing at all, then called the river after spiking bottom pair

when defending his blind, he will always check/raise with any pair, and always donkbet with nothing

good player. can be very tricky.

limp re-raised AA from the button

arkitekton

08-11-2006, 06:13 AM

#11 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: canada

Posts: 269

Here are a few. I take notes on just about everyone when I'm playing one or two tables. I try to be as specific as possible, and if I have a good sense of a player I'll add a summary at the top of my notes on him/her for quick reference.

A1fred~raised late, 2 in, w 66>
ADHDTOWN~>
AJ31105~wow--called the TURN, small pot, w a gutshot>
AKARR~cc ep raise w A7s>
AKcbr954~raised immed on the flop w middle set and on another hand seemed to just bet when he paired the turn--no chk raises for him as bb just called w AA w 3 in>
AMP9666~can make some curious plays on the flop...>
APOKEA~>
ASIANP~raised 4th w Ato as co reraised mp3 w 66>
AUWylie~crafty--checks tpgk w 3 in on A23 flop>
AZJEEPER~may know what he's doing--def agg so he's just bad>
AZUbar~>
A_host~didn't raise as d, one in, w KQo>
Ace_Skyler~may have a clue. Made a nice positional 3bet as co v my mp3 raise>
AcidTongue1~darned if first of five he didn't just go ahead and best his set>
AgnostosA~>
Air4rce1~just called 0 in, mid, w AQo also slowplayed a set seems loose, passive pf>
Ajezz1~raised as bb w 2 in w 99>
AlleyViper~just called as d as sb called 3 bet w KQs (co and d raised)>
AlphaXY~raised, ep3 in, as mp3 w K8s>

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