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what do you do when you cant beat a specific limit

  
 
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pokerlearner
Old 07-11-2006, 05:28 PM     Post subject: what do you do when you cant beat a specific limit #1 (permalink)  
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pokerlearner
Cliffs notes for those who dont like to read long posts:
Hero has been sucking at 4-8 for a looooooooooong time. He however is doing ok at 6-12 and great at 9-18 (however these two limits is about 1/2 and 1/3 sample size as 4-8).

what is hero to do until he gets 300 bb for the next higher regular game? leaving 4-8 is not an option till then because 6-12 is bad game most of the time and 9-18 is only available on weekends.

Hero plays 4 hours a day every day on average at B&M
----------------------------END OF CLIFFS NOTES ----------------------------------

so I posted a few weeks back about moving up to $15-$30 and did move up for a 2 sessions had a smallish bad run and didnt want to risk my 200 BB bankroll playing that game and only move up after i get 300BB+.

anyways, since then i been playing 4-8 , 6-12 and 9-18 (available only on weekends now).
My results in the 4-8 game has been RIDICULOUSLY bad.

Total result in 4-8:

up $3650 in 525 hours @.87 bb/hour. RIDICULOUSLY PATHETIC because i won $3547 in my first 100 hours of 4-8 play. That means in last 400 hours I have not made ANY MONEY AT ALL.

400 hours = 400*30 hands/hour = 12000 hands.

Do i suck ? I am at my wits end.

I am going to read SSH again and see if i picked up some bad habits, but honestly here is my evaluation of myself.

* I have started playing a little looser (still have very high standards if there is a PFR, but if no PFR then i limp in with more hands than when i did when i first started playing poker). still about 60-70% tighter than the table without PFR, and 90% tighter if there is a pfr.

*with all these hours live, i have gotten better at stealing pots when there is weakness all around. this has been a major improvement than before where i wouldnt even make any such attempts.

i am at my wits end. I cant NOT play 4-8 because 6-12 is rarely that good a game in my casino. 9-18 only happens in weekends.

my results in 9-18 and 6-12 has been very good. I have played 170 hours of 9-18 and 200 hours of 6-12 so far (small sample but still !!).

What the hell is going on ? i have read time and time again here that 4-8 is still beatable with the rake.

am i playing poor ? bad run lasting 12000 hands (along with occasional tilting because of frustrating session).

sorry couldnt give indivudual example hands. didnt want to sound like a sore loser telling bad beat stories.

any advice will be very helpful. THANKS FTR.
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bigspenda73
Old 07-11-2006, 05:51 PM #2 (permalink)  
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bigspenda73 will become famous soon enoughbigspenda73 will become famous soon enough
 I would revisit what was working well in the first 100 hrs when you started playing 4-8. Also, try and squeeze every last ounce of value out of your hands. Look at it this way, over those last 400 hours if you would have been able to eeke out 1/2BB more an hour your br would be noticiably larger. Also, from playing in these games I have picked up a few tells from these opponents. I hope you have been able to and should apply the one's you have as well.

Good luck and play hard
'spenda
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Ltrain
Old 07-11-2006, 06:17 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I agree with re-reading SSHE and reminding yourself of the changes in focus and strategy to the smaller games from the bigger games. You are experienced enough to know that in "every body plays, every body wins" games, you will limp more speculative hands (A,xs; low pocket pairs, suited connectors), pump your draws on the flop, protect your TPTK on the turn rather than the flop on coordinated boards and value bet your rivers. A little refresher will help you tie in the remaining details. Also, although an "isolation/steal" game works well in the bigger games and is a winning strategy overall, I think you lose money in the long run in the little games with this strategy versus a "big pot" strategy because of the increased effect of the rake/tips.

Ex. in a game with a low rake percentage, I would look to isolate with A,10o and take down the pot on the flop with a continuation bet. In a high rake game, I may consider mucking it because I have reverse odds to my TPTK while paying a huge percentage of a small pot in rake IF I win, or losing a big pot to a suckout when I lose.
"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
 
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pokerlearner
Old 07-11-2006, 07:37 PM #4 (permalink)  
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excellent last paragraph analysis LTRain. Thanks again man, you may not remember this but you have been advising me on hands/strategy ever since I started playing poker....

My isolation-steal game is not working in 4-8. period. time to read SSH again and start playing proper multiway pot game.
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arkitekton
Old 07-16-2006, 03:56 AM #5 (permalink)  
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arkitekton
Quote:
protect your TPTK on the turn rather than the flop on coordinated boards
Ltrain, if you`re still following this thread, why is this the correct strategy? I`ve tended to protect TPTK on the flop, and while I`ve noticed it does help my results, people often don`t fold hands I would expect them to fold (even with a flop raise the bet is too small to fold loose players?), and since you mention specifically coordinated boards, is the idea to see if the flop is going to get raised by someone else, allowing you to bail out without putting more bets in?
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Ltrain
Old 07-17-2006, 02:09 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkitekton
Quote:
protect your TPTK on the turn rather than the flop on coordinated boards
Ltrain, if you`re still following this thread, why is this the correct strategy? I`ve tended to protect TPTK on the flop, and while I`ve noticed it does help my results, people often don`t fold hands I would expect them to fold (even with a flop raise the bet is too small to fold loose players?), and since you mention specifically coordinated boards, is the idea to see if the flop is going to get raised by someone else, allowing you to bail out without putting more bets in?
Let's use an example. You are on the button, four players limp. You raise with A,Ko. Everyone and the blinds call. Flop is 9,10 suited with a non suit K. Assume you have no other draws other than the top pair. Everyone checks to you. You could raise, but given the large range of hands out there, including flush draws and gutshots, a bet will not protect your hand. You could bet here for value, but as you said, every conceivable draw, including a lower one pair, gutshots and flush draws, will call you bet; some with odds, some without. By betting here though, they are still getting good or somewhat good odds to beat you.

You check, turn is a blank 2. Now, assume everyone checks or one player with a pair of 10's, thinking he is good, bets. You can now bet or raise reducing the draws behind you to high -EV, still have the best hand, but can now properly protect it. If you are 3bet, you know can be about 95% sure you are beaten and can let it go.

Let's assume you check, turn is a 8 of the suit; worst card. Now, assume checks around or a bet. Here, you are being bet into and have no redraws. Evaluation is key, but against most loose passives, I would call, bet/fold to a checkraise (all checks) or fold to another river bet if I don't improve.
"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
 
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arkitekton
Old 07-17-2006, 10:44 PM #7 (permalink)  
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arkitekton
Great example, Ltrain--very clear, and does seem like an excellent way of handling those knds of situations. Of late I`ve just been donking along, betting my good hands with little additional thought about whether betting a given hand ultimately makes the most sense. Thanks for the details.
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