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what to do?..

  
 
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Chopper
Old 07-07-2008, 03:18 AM     Post subject: what to do?.. #1 (permalink)  
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be patient with me here. Cake HHs are a complete bitch to post. so, i am going from memory here.

6max .25/.50 fwiw. (lots of volume tonight on cake...dont know why, but i like it.)

i am in MP. loose/bluffy villain is BTN. another dead money player is SB. i had several hands i noted w/ BTN-boy. he tended to overplay overpairs and bluff a bit. i didnt notice when he bluffed, though. i just thought he "woke up" a bit too often to always be catching miracle cards. i hadnt seen him slowplay anything big, but i hadnt seen him showdown anything weak, either. if he showed it, he had it. he just seemed to fire too much to always have it. (sorry for the long read, and bad one at that, but its all i had to go on)

i get dealt QcJc and open raise when i am folded to. BTN calls. SB completes cold. BB, surprisingly folds.

3-handed to flop of 9h Tc 7c. SB checks, i fire, BTN calls.

3-handed turn card of Kc. checks to me, i fire, BTN raises. SB folds. i insta3bet, BTN caps.

what is my play on a bricked river? c/c? b/c? b/3b?

and why please? because i am dead thinking, the way the night was going against me, and by the cards i was seeing, and the passive play by most people, that this HAD to be AXs. i cant see sets capping turns w/ flush cards hitting. i cant see two pair ripping into me like this, as i had not seen any power play thus far. it was all chasing and completing when the action got feaky-deaky.

is there any chance this is weaker flushes? it would have to be 9 hi.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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KoRnholio
Old 07-07-2008, 03:49 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 I bet-call. Some villains will go nuts here with straights or weaker flushes.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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asdpikas
Old 07-07-2008, 05:21 AM #3 (permalink)  
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b/c
u cant give villain credit for Axs without further reads.
If he got it, thats too bad, take note and move on. U have the 2nd nuts, u cant be afraid wo a specific read.
He could have AX with the Ac, but not the Xc. something like Ac7d
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asdpikas
Old 07-07-2008, 05:24 AM #4 (permalink)  
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KT or another QJ are also in his range
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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DrivingDog
Old 07-07-2008, 12:46 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I think if you look at how the hand was played the whole way Btn shows up with AcXc here a lot. So while I don't mind the turn 3bet, I plan to just c/c the river.

Your read is that the player seems to raise a lot, but always shows down good hands. That's a reason to think he's been getting good cards, not that he's bluffs a lot! If he were showing down junk or folding to re-raises those would be reasons to think he was bluffing. The fact that he's raising good hands suggests he's a strong player.

He cold calls pf. Axs is in a lot of players' range, as are hands like KQ, QTs, QJ, KJ, etc., i.e., lots of 'two big cards that aren't big enough to 3bet with and/or Axs'. You can probably add some smaller pps in there, maybe 55-99.

KT probably raises the flop and probably doesn't cap the scary turn card. Same goes for any other two pair hand. QJ might cap the turn but that's pretty spewy with the flush possibility out there. Once you 3bet he should be hitting the brakes with QJ. Even a hand like 77, 99 should be slowing down on that board.

I think this is almost never a smaller flush either. What, he cold calls pf with 98s? Then just calls the flop bet? Then caps the turn with the fourth nuts? Any one of those three is pretty implausible on its own but all three happening on the same hand is extremely unlikely.

AcXc likes the flop, but doesn't raise because he's drawing and there's a decent chance you have him beat. Turn gives him the nuts and it's go time.

Say you do lead the river after he caps the turn. This is a very strong move, and I think the only hand he is going to raise you with is the one that has you beat. I just check/call this river and expect to see AcXc.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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DrivingDog
Old 07-07-2008, 12:49 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
b/c
He could have AX with the Ac, but not the Xc. something like Ac7d
He is never capping the turn with this unless he is a complete spewtard.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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DrivingDog
Old 07-07-2008, 12:58 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
KT or another QJ are also in his range
If you know someone who cold calls preflop with KT, doesn't raise the flop with TPGK, then caps the turn on this board please send them to my table...
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Chopper
Old 07-07-2008, 01:11 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
I think if you look at how the hand was played the whole way Btn shows up with AcXc here a lot. So while I don't mind the turn 3bet, I plan to just c/c the river.
this is where i often b/c turns planning to c/r safer rivers. however, what i am trying to balance out with is 3betting/capping turns and charging that Ac full price. if i get a capped turn, no way anyone folds the river for a single bet, right? and, this line tends to maximize things while i'm ahead, doesnt it? i felt 2nd nuts was strong enough to do this with, and i could always keep the river small, if i didnt like the way the turn went or the way the river card fell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Your read is that the player seems to raise a lot, but always shows down good hands. That's a reason to think he's been getting good cards, not that he's bluffs a lot! If he were showing down junk or folding to re-raises those would be reasons to think he was bluffing. The fact that he's raising good hands suggests he's a strong player.

He cold calls pf. Axs is in a lot of players' range, as are hands like KQ, QTs, QJ, KJ, etc., i.e., lots of 'two big cards that aren't big enough to 3bet with and/or Axs'. You can probably add some smaller pps in there, maybe 55-99.
doesnt the bold part start to make you wonder about just how strong he is? it did me. strong players dont do this, except very rarely. and, never first after the raise...even in position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
KT probably raises the flop and probably doesn't cap the scary turn card. Same goes for any other two pair hand. QJ might cap the turn but that's pretty spewy with the flush possibility out there. Once you 3bet he should be hitting the brakes with QJ. Even a hand like 77, 99 should be slowing down on that board.
which is why i had him on AcXc and couldnt see anything else reasonable after the cap. but, i get confused often times between what is logical and what players this low do. the thin line is knowing the spots these guys are likely to overplay, and i didnt see this as one, but i wondered if i SHOULD have...most times?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
I think this is almost never a smaller flush either. What, he cold calls pf with 98s? Then just calls the flop bet? Then caps the turn with the fourth nuts? Any one of those three is pretty implausible on its own but all three happening on the same hand is extremely unlikely.

AcXc likes the flop, but doesn't raise because he's drawing and there's a decent chance you have him beat. Turn gives him the nuts and it's go time.

Say you do lead the river after he caps the turn. This is a very strong move, and I think the only hand he is going to raise you with is the one that has you beat. I just check/call this river and expect to see AcXc.
so, you are a bit spooked to? thats good to know.

i c/c'd river to find Kh4c. and, i about lost it for not b/3b'ing this dumbass.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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BennyLaRue
Old 07-07-2008, 01:24 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
b/c
He could have AX with the Ac, but not the Xc. something like Ac7d
He is never capping the turn with this unless he is a complete spewtard.
Bear in mind it's 6max .25/.50. That's the spewtard's natural habitat.
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DrivingDog
Old 07-07-2008, 02:29 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Yeah he slightly overplayed that K4 lol. Sorry my analysis assumed he was a ratonal player with some evidence he was and no evidence (yet) to the contrary - and despite what happened here I don't think that's a bad strategy at any level really.

I don't know if you would have got more than 1 BB out of him on the river in any case, but now that you know he's a superdonk you can pound him all you want with the second nuts next time.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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asdpikas
Old 07-07-2008, 02:36 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
b/c
He could have AX with the Ac, but not the Xc. something like Ac7d
He is never capping the turn with this unless he is a complete spewtard.
Bear in mind it's 6max .25/.50. That's the spewtard's natural habitat.
I was taking into account the level, of course it would be a different story at 2/4 or above
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DrivingDog
Old 07-07-2008, 02:44 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
I think if you look at how the hand was played the whole way Btn shows up with AcXc here a lot. So while I don't mind the turn 3bet, I plan to just c/c the river.
this is where i often b/c turns planning to c/r safer rivers. however, what i am trying to balance out with is 3betting/capping turns and charging that Ac full price. if i get a capped turn, no way anyone folds the river for a single bet, right? and, this line tends to maximize things while i'm ahead, doesnt it? i felt 2nd nuts was strong enough to do this with, and i could always keep the river small, if i didnt like the way the turn went or the way the river card fell.
Even a rational player will raise the turn with a lot of hands that aren't the nuts, and 3betting with the second nuts is absolutely correct. Getting capped is normally a danger sign though unless you have a read that he overplays his hands. In effect, your 3bet says 'i have at least a straight but more likely a flush', and if he considers your range of hands it's difficult for a sane player to cap without the nuts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Your read is that the player seems to raise a lot, but always shows down good hands. That's a reason to think he's been getting good cards, not that he's bluffs a lot! If he were showing down junk or folding to re-raises those would be reasons to think he was bluffing. The fact that he's raising good hands suggests he's a strong player.

He cold calls pf. Axs is in a lot of players' range, as are hands like KQ, QTs, QJ, KJ, etc., i.e., lots of 'two big cards that aren't big enough to 3bet with and/or Axs'. You can probably add some smaller pps in there, maybe 55-99.
doesnt the bold part start to make you wonder about just how strong he is? it did me. strong players dont do this, except very rarely. and, never first after the raise...even in position.
It's not a recommended play but it's not the worst thing you can do either (unless it's with K4!), so until I see what he has I'm not pinning the donk label to him yet. Also, a lot of guys play hands they probably shouldn't preflop but can still play well postflop, and actually make a profit because other players assume "this guy with a VPIP of 50% can't possibly have a good hand."



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
KT probably raises the flop and probably doesn't cap the scary turn card. Same goes for any other two pair hand. QJ might cap the turn but that's pretty spewy with the flush possibility out there. Once you 3bet he should be hitting the brakes with QJ. Even a hand like 77, 99 should be slowing down on that board.
which is why i had him on AcXc and couldnt see anything else reasonable after the cap. but, i get confused often times between what is logical and what players this low do. the thin line is knowing the spots these guys are likely to overplay, and i didnt see this as one, but i wondered if i SHOULD have...most times?
Tough one, I agree. Without a read I tend to give villians credit for having some sense - maybe too much.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Chopper
Old 07-07-2008, 04:44 PM #13 (permalink)  
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thats my big fault right now. giving too much credit. and, in part, thanks to your help...among others...i've become better at pushing anyway.

but, inevitably, i start to push too hard at exactly the time variance kicks in and they HAVE a hand, too. lol.

oh well, live and learn. thanks, guys.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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BennyLaRue
Old 07-07-2008, 05:09 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
thats my big fault right now. giving too much credit. and, in part, thanks to your help...among others...i've become better at pushing anyway.
It's smart to be cautious early without a read on a player. After 4 or 5 orbits though, if I see an aggressive bettor hasn't shown many cards and therefore hasn't given me information, I'll call down with a relatively weak holding just to look him up. Beyond potentially obtaining information on starting range and betting, I also offer disinformation by doing this, so the benefits are twofold.

This might seem like an expensive way of obtaining information but, limited to a couple of times during a table session (not a couple of times per opp), I find it pays for itself and then some to be able to build reliable profiles.

Some caveats though:
- I don't do this at Stars, where the player population is so large that information on one particular opp is worth less.
- I don't do this at 3/6 or higher, as the quality of play is generally higher at those limits.
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Chopper
Old 07-07-2008, 10:42 PM #15 (permalink)  
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excellent caveats.

however, your first definitely applies at cake. player pool very small.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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