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Watch me bluff this total fish (LC)

  
 
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Darby
Old 01-27-2006, 01:19 AM     Post subject: Watch me bluff this total fish (LC) #1 (permalink)  
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I know it looks like I donked this hand up, but once it was heads up at the end, I thought I could push that guy off his likely overcards because he was a total fish. I saw him cap with Q3o when it was 3 bets to him preflop. He was a total maniac, and I may have had him beat on the end anyway.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, K.
UTG calls, MP raises, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP caps, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (20 SB) 8, 2, 3 (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (12 BB) 6 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Button folds, Hero raises, UTG folds, MP 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (18 BB) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets, MP folds.

Final Pot: 19 BB

{Edit by PokerFanatic because it seems no one knows how to use a hand converter}
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ArcticKnight
Old 01-27-2006, 01:53 AM #2 (permalink)  
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You are 3 betting out of the SB with a hand that ought be folded even on the button behind a raise and a cold call. You are putting in 2.5 bets with KQos and you are first to act post-flop!!! Do you really think that was a good play?

Post-flop you don't lead out with a bet even though you are the aggressor pre-flop.....

You raise the turn on a card that no-one would put a 3 bettor on.


Sure you are not falling into the trap of trying to pay any price to play when the fish is in the hand...
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
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Shark Bait
Old 01-27-2006, 02:01 AM #3 (permalink)  
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3 bet with AQo isn't so bad against a guy with a high PFR, but KQo is such a shit hand out of position.



sorry...had to bring this one back. I am a real fish.
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euphoricism
Old 01-27-2006, 02:11 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
You are 3 betting out of the SB with a hand that ought be folded even on the button behind a raise and a cold call. You are putting in 2.5 bets with KQos and you are first to act post-flop!!! Do you really think that was a good play?

Post-flop you don't lead out with a bet even though you are the aggressor pre-flop.....

You raise the turn on a card that no-one would put a 3 bettor on.


Sure you are not falling into the trap of trying to pay any price to play when the fish is in the hand...
Few things. First off, if you're on the button, MP raises, CO cold calls, and you even consider folding KQo, you're farkin up bad. Now from the SB like in the OPs post, yeah, I probably just call preflop.

Youre right that he should have led out on the flop. Raising preflop from the SB and checking the flop F2A is a big mistake.

However, by accident he probably repped a stronger hand than he had. If my opponent raised preflop from the SB, then checked the flop, I'm thinking either he's retarded, or he's got a monster (and probably both). When he c/r'd the turn, I'd probably give up my hand without too much thought.

His c/r on a card no one would put him on means that well, no one's put him on it. That means its got to be BETTER than the first card.

Alright, OP, you got really farkin lucky. I wouldn't pull that again, particularly from the SB. I'd be much happier if you threebet preflop from the button rather than the SB, and just call from the SB.
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euphoricism
Old 01-27-2006, 02:22 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Big difference in hand value between full ring and 5 handed.
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Old 01-27-2006, 02:31 AM #6 (permalink)  
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ArcticKnight
Old 01-27-2006, 04:02 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Hi Euphoricism

I guess I'm " farkin up bad."
KQ Suited against loose ops, I would agree. But I couldn't 3 bet this on the button behind an MP raise and a unknown cold call. If I'm laying down a +EV situation here, I am open to hearing why? I just don't see KQos being strong enough here for 3 bet.

However, if the MP was loose and weak , then I would see this as an easy isolation call from the CO position with KQos.
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
 
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ArcticKnight
Old 01-27-2006, 04:12 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Big difference in hand value between full ring and 5 handed.
Agreed -- it's a group 4 hand, 10handed. Trash

With high cards going up in value and suited cards going down in value in 5 or 6 handed, KQos increases in value, but does not become a dominating hand.

After all, we still have an EP raise followed by a cold-call, and the principle of "a greater hand to call a bet than to make one" does not change from 1o max to 6 max.
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
 
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Shark Bait
Old 01-27-2006, 04:12 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Big difference in hand value between full ring and 5 handed.
ugh....it's another one of "those" hands. Damn you 6 max.
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euphoricism
Old 01-27-2006, 01:36 PM #10 (permalink)  
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A) Because you're 50/50 with any PPair lower than JJ (and getting more than 2:1 by the sheer fact that theres a cold caller).

B) Youre only really dominated by AK, AA, and KK.

C) In 6max, cold callers are bad players. Every chance I can get to get lots of money in pots with bad players and let them compound on their mistakes is good for me. Brings up your variance though.

D) Getting the BTN, SB, or BB to fold clears up outs, wheras if I cold call behind, they're getting great odds.

E) I'm only looking for marginally +EV situations - and then doing them 1000 times a day.
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pokerfanatic
Old 01-27-2006, 02:03 PM #11 (permalink)  
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The title of the original post just makes me want to laugh, "Watch me bluff this total fish"...

Ok, now that sounds like a +EV situation right? WRONG! total fish = over calls everything, so the point of your bluff is to get him to fold a bettor hand, he wont fold the bettor hand 95% of the time so how is this a +EV play?

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You make too many fancy plays against players that just don’t think about what you’re doing. They also can’t understand the play given they don’t understand correct play in the first place.
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Xanadu
Old 01-27-2006, 02:17 PM #12 (permalink)  
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yeah, you didn't bluff him ... he bluffed you and gave up the bluff on the end.
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Ltrain
Old 01-27-2006, 02:54 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Regarding the post:

"Fish" and "Maniac" are two different players and play differently. A fish is loose/passive, will limp anything and fold to a bet if they don't hit at least a draw. A Maniac is there to gambool. They will play/raise a wide range of hands, hit miracles, get the table to tilt and then clean up on their action... if they are hitting. O.W., they become an ATM Machine.

In both cases, your goal is to isolate and take their money. However, you do it differently depending upon the player. A fish is predictable and you can steal most posts on the flop, or play the rest of the hand on the assumption a flop call hit them somehow. A maniac you want to play tighter than normal and get to showdown as often as you can as cheaply as you can. Raise for value, don't bluff them. Also, make sure you enter a pot on a maniac with position. For example, in your hand, what if the maniac raised you on the river? What do you do then? If he is a true maniac he is capable of doing it with anything and you may have to fold a winner.

On the hand, it reminded me of the Star Wars scene where Han tells Luke, "Great shot kid, don't get cocky". You won; don't do it again.
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thenonsequitur
Old 01-27-2006, 05:34 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Did someone actually just quote Star Wars to impart wisdom? I'm genuinely impressed.
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Xanadu
Old 01-27-2006, 05:52 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Getting double-check-raised on the turn (2 check then both raise) reminds me of when Han says 'we've come out in a meteor shower, some kind of asteroid collission.' Which is one of my favorite, and I consider the worst line in all of Star Wars.
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ihategnomes
Old 01-27-2006, 05:55 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Actually, Ithink Im gonna have to go with ArticKnight on this one. Sorry russ. Your dominated by AQ, AK, as well dont forget those, plus your out of position with mutilple players in the pot.
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Romulus141
Old 01-27-2006, 06:16 PM #17 (permalink)  
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I don't know much about 6-max, but I typically fold QKo to a raise (I'll call or reraise with QKs) in the SB, even against a maniac, especially because several other people are in the pot too. QKo isn't that good multi-way, and although high cards are more valuable in 6-max, multi-way you're still fighting an uphill battle. You'd like to isolate the maniac, but in this situation that won't work. You'll only pump the pot so any two cards are correct to call. My crappy position plus 3 other players in the hand when it gets to me is typically bad news.

I see no reason to raise the turn. If the maniac is playing anything, he probably hit this flop in some way. The pot is huge, no one is going to fold.

Congrats on the win.
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euphoricism
Old 01-27-2006, 09:03 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihategnomes
Actually, Ithink Im gonna have to go with ArticKnight on this one. Sorry russ. Your dominated by AQ, AK, as well dont forget those, plus your out of position with mutilple players in the pot.
no no, we're talking about different circumstances From the SB, yes I agree with him. We were differing on if OP was instead on the BTN, I threebet.
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ArcticKnight
Old 01-28-2006, 12:43 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihategnomes
Actually, Ithink Im gonna have to go with ArticKnight on this one. Sorry russ. Your dominated by AQ, AK, as well dont forget those, plus your out of position with mutilple players in the pot.
no no, we're talking about different circumstances From the SB, yes I agree with him. We were differing on if OP was instead on the BTN, I threebet.
Yes, Euphorisicism and I agree this was a poor play out of the SB, but the discussion ensued that I thought it would have been be a bad 3 bet on the button.
I think both Euhhorisicism would agree that it's not about which one of us is right, as it's probably marginal each way, and is very much read and stat dependent.

I just think it's worthy of some discussion, as we don't tend to build on these theme disccussions by having some good debate. I find I learn most about my gaps when lots of folks weigh in from different angles, and raise different reasons why a play is -EV or +EV.

I mean there are no brainers with KQos with postion like this hand from last night. MP was 10/4 6 handed (which is like 6/3 10 handed). tight and mousy.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, K.
1 fold, MP raises, 3 folds, BB calls $19.50 (All-In), MP calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 7, A, 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (3.20 BB) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (3.20 BB) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: 3.20 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 8s Js (one pair, sevens).
MP has Qh Qd (two pair, queens and sevens).
Outcome: MP wins 3.20 BB.


As noted, though, it would be nice to have discussion on what conditions cause a fold/3 bet with KQos on the button behind a raise and a cold-caller.
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
 
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euphoricism
Old 01-28-2006, 07:44 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Really its nothing earth shattering -- just a matter of who the preflop raiser is, like you said. Cold callers are almost 99% of the time @ 6max, awful players. So they really don't matter to me too much.

So it boils down to what range we can put the PFR raiser on. Against an "average" player, I'm threebetting. I'd need a specific read not to raise, rather than a read to raise.

Thats probably a very key distinction between six max and full ring. Wheras in full ring, you'll need a read to threebet someone with KQo, in 6max you need a read not to. Its a shift in "default play"
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elipsesjeff
Old 01-28-2006, 10:16 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
I'd need a specific read not to raise, rather than a read to raise.
Quoted for truth.


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