Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

REGISTER
Subscribe to FTR web feed
Already Registered?      Username:    Password:   Remember      Forgot Password

Poker Forum

  > 

All Other (Limit) Poker

  > 

A very boring ATo hand

  
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Fnord
Old 05-09-2005, 09:12 AM     Post subject: A very boring ATo hand #1 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
MP1 is LooPy

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP3 with T, A.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Fnord calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) T, Q, 6 (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, MP2 folds, Fnord raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) T (2 players)
MP1 checks, Fnord bets, MP1 calls.

River: (7.50 BB) A (2 players)
MP1 checks, Fnord bets, MP1 raises, Fnord 3-bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Results in white below:
MP1 has Ks Ac (two pair, aces and tens).
Fnord has Td Ah (full house, tens full of aces).
Outcome: Fnord wins 13.50 BB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
Element187
Old 05-09-2005, 02:16 PM #2 (permalink)  
Element187's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 802
Element187
Send a message via AIM to Element187
no raise with AK ??? is villain trying to be deceptive or stupid??
"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls
 
Reply With Quote
pokerfanatic
Old 05-09-2005, 02:21 PM #3 (permalink)  
pokerfanatic's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
pokerfanatic
Send a message via AIM to pokerfanatic
Umm no raise preflop from AK then bets a missed flop, then calls down and ACTULLY thought his hand was good improved just with an Ace... this guy just looks stupid, I don't think he was trying to be deceptive...
“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
 
Reply With Quote
Yeldud
Old 05-09-2005, 02:47 PM #4 (permalink)  
Straight

Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 149
Yeldud
I think this is the first time I ever seen Fnord Limp in from the CO?
If you put all your faith in the river, you are up shit's creek
 
Reply With Quote
Trikflow77
Old 05-09-2005, 07:13 PM #5 (permalink)  
Trikflow77's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
Trikflow77
Quote:
I think this is the first time I ever seen Fnord Limp in from the CO
My would he raise a marginal offsuit hand after 3 limpers? He would be burning chips, it doesnt play well multi way.........but if suited, he would have popped it here.
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 05-09-2005, 07:25 PM #6 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
2-3 months ago I would have raised here pre-flop. Now I know better. Constantly learning.

FWIW, I think a pre-flop raise is ok, but this is a better way to play it and reduces varaince by both keeping the pot small and hiding my hand.

On the flop our hand is certainly worth a call, but the pot gives us enough overlay to raise here. It also pretty quicky defines the hands of the players remaining to act (but not so much the original better, he may 3-bet a pretty wide range depending on the player and the mood he's in.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
Yeldud
Old 05-09-2005, 09:01 PM #7 (permalink)  
Straight

Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 149
Yeldud
Quote:
Originally Posted by trikflow77
Quote:
I think this is the first time I ever seen Fnord Limp in from the CO
My would he raise a marginal offsuit hand after 3 limpers? He would be burning chips, it doesnt play well multi way.........but if suited, he would have popped it here.
I totally agree. I was only trying to get to the point that of you look at his hand histories he usually only limps from UTG or UTG+1 and outside of that it is raise or fold.

I usually fold A 10o even from CO - too tight?
If you put all your faith in the river, you are up shit's creek
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 05-09-2005, 09:04 PM #8 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeldud
I usually fold A 10o even from CO - too tight?
Yes. At least two of the biggest winners in the Party 15/30 game open raise ATo from UTG+2 at a full table. Personally, I'm opening it from MP and onward.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
ChezJ
Old 05-09-2005, 11:23 PM #9 (permalink)  
ChezJ's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point
 fnord, i understand you have specific reasons to open-raise ATo at a tightish 3/6 or higher game where you are getting some sort of respect from the opponents. but you wouldn't recommend this for the lower stakes "no fold em" hold em games, would you? i'm guessing that ATo has almost no edge against a school of fish.

ChezJ
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 05-09-2005, 11:42 PM #10 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChezJ
i'm guessing that ATo has almost no edge against a school of fish.
Not much edge vs a school of fish. You do have a pretty big edge vs 1 or 2 fish. Your best chance to play a 2-3 way pot with position is to raise! If the game is super-loose, then you should limp instead (as well as limp KQ and AJ.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
ArcticKnight
Old 05-10-2005, 02:16 AM #11 (permalink)  
ArcticKnight's Avatar
Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
ArcticKnight
I agree that 10 handed you don't want to be limping with A10os in that situation in 15/30, but short-handed u have to.

Fnord mentioned limping in 15/30......

There is way more more cold-calling too. Also, people don't always 3bet or cap their premium non-pairs AKos, AQs. This happens way more than 5/10, and somewhat more than 10/20.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with T, A.
1 fold, MP calls, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (10 SB) Q, A, 6 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, MP folds.

Turn: (6 BB) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, Hero calls.

River: (14BB) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.


Results in white below: [color=:#FFFFFF]
SB has 5c 5s (two pair, sixes and fives).
Hero has Td Ac (two pair, aces and sixes).


And when it's down to four or five even more fun... you can play weak Aces when folded to the button again.


Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, 8.
1 fold, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) A, 8, 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) J (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB folds.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

Results in white below: [color:#FFFFFF]
Hero has Ac 8d (two pair, aces and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.50 BB. [/color]
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 05-10-2005, 02:22 AM #12 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
That turn action is soo Party 15/30. Although, when I took a shot at the game either I was caught with KK or he rivered a 5. *grumble* Comming from 2/4, some 3/6 and bigger play at weaker sites I just wasn't ready for all of the post-flop aggression. I'm getting better at that now and my 3/6 winnings are at an all time high.

I think a big part of it is the fucking 2/3 blind structure makes it both correct to play a litte more LAggy, forces you to play more from your SB and makes blind wars messy. Then throw in a bunch of players that take this way too far, a few rocks and a few of the best fucking players on the internet. That's Party 15/30 in a nutshell. BLAST AWAY!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
ArcticKnight
Old 05-10-2005, 03:46 AM #13 (permalink)  
ArcticKnight's Avatar
Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
ArcticKnight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
That turn action is soo Party 15/30. Although, when I took a shot at the game either I was caught with KK or he rivered a 5. *grumble* Comming from 2/4, some 3/6 and bigger play at weaker sites I just wasn't ready for all of the post-flop aggression. I'm getting better at that now and my 3/6 winnings are at an all time high.

I think a big part of it is the fucking 2/3 blind structure makes it both correct to play a litte more LAggy, forces you to play more from your SB and makes blind wars messy. Then throw in a bunch of players that take this way too far, a few rocks and a few of the best fucking players on the internet. That's Party 15/30 in a nutshell. BLAST AWAY!
My visit this weekend was an experience. I was up a fair amount from 10/20 and decided to put a $1000 in play at some full and short-handed 10/30 tables.



I went up to $1700, down to $250, back up to $1300, down to $400 and up to $1600 and checked out at $850.

I'm done at 15/30 Fnord.....my head hurts.

Here is what I found, much of what you said, Fnord.

The SB might as well be the BB. I mean it's the inverse of cold-calling. When you fold in the SB you feel like you are cold-folding, or something equally awkward.

In shorthanded games I raised back the SB about 80-90% of the time, just to give me some momentum post-flop. It worked more often than not. With the blind structure, just calling in the BB when the SB completes feels so weak you almost have to raise.

Guys are 3 betting 87s and QJs, but are cold-calling with AQs, KQs and AKs and AKos , and then going agro postflop. And these ARE NOT weak players cold-calling. Repeat: cold-calling may not be +EV, but don't assume the cold-caller does not have game.


The loose passive players are easy to play against for the most part, as they give you free or cheap draws. Also, they can be pushed off pots because of the higher limits (It's hard to push some guys with bottom pair off in 5/10!!!).

The hardest people to play against in 15/30 are the semi-loose agros. Many are, I agree, the best players out there. They give themselves so many ways to win. They fast play both strong hands and medium hands, and they mix in slowplaying strong hands and Check-raising. They cold call some strong hands to hide their strength, and then they are capping with weaker hands later. When you do decide to "pop" them, it's like they know, for god sakes, and they roll over KK to your JJ (that one is ingrained in my head. Whatever he missed pre-flop he sucked out everying he could get post-flop -lol)

In short, the semi loose agros make it REAL hard to get a pre-flop read, and they are awesome post-flop. What more can you ask for as a player than that???

Another thing, which was kind of funny. Everyone once in a while a tighty would go agro and showdown a crap hand he lost, like 46os. I think the ploy was to get action later. Then he would camp out for 15-20 hands and raise pre-flop, and everyone would fold. In fact, I found the tight players did not do well. If there were semi-loose agros around it seemed to drive them nuts.

The TAGs are Ok to play against. With PT u can tell who is really tight. Thing is you can play off this because many of them can't let go of AK, AQ etc shorthanded. Otherwise, I stay out of their way and respect their raises. TAGs are almost too predictable for success at 15/30. They seem to stand out way too much. They don't much action, and when they try to step in more to capitalize on that, they get played back hard and are back to thier 8 to 12%VP zone.

I mean you can't play 10%VP$1P and all of the sudden expect the field to repsect your button raises. I seen a few guys shutdown with 3 bets out of the BB. It's funny. Many TAGS didn't stick around.

Here is another reason I think the TAGS don't do well.

I think many TAGS come up the ranks from multi-table play, and play a pretty straightforward game. They pound away when they are ahead, and fold when they are (or think they or behind and do not have odds to draw a win). Also, at other limits I think they are used to often taking down the field with unimproved hands by very aggressive post-flop play.

I think many find it unsettling when they have waited 15 hands for a hand, only to find that after 3-betting a cold-caller, he then gets capped by the same cold-caller. All this, keeping in mind that the cold-caller is good, and knows he is up against a tight player. What now for the TAG??

I have also found the TAGS the easiest to bluff at 10/20. For the most part, TAGS don't like to calldown with marginal hands as much as loose passive or loose agressive players do. I don't overbluff, but when I have had success it ha often come against a TAG after capping postflop on a low rainbow, connected or semi-connected baord....but I digress.

In closing (and I'm rambling becasue I was trying to take in some much this weekend while still treading water), there are some really bad players at 15/30. I was suprised to find some players that missed so many bets on hands when they were ahead it was amazing. Also, the hands they lost on the river by not forcing out weaker hands was also strange. I think some of these players play the same hands as they do at lower levels, but fear losing as opposed to blasting away when they are ahead.


Excuse the typos
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
 
Reply With Quote
ChezJ
Old 05-10-2005, 04:09 AM #14 (permalink)  
ChezJ's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point
 great post, very informative!! should be its own thread.

actually, it would make a nice addition to ellipsesjeff's limit HE guide, which makes some great observations of the "plays" at the 3/6 level but goes no higher.

ChezJ
Reply With Quote
elipsesjeff
Old 05-10-2005, 03:46 PM #15 (permalink)  
elipsesjeff's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChezJ
great post, very informative!! should be its own thread.

actually, it would make a nice addition to ellipsesjeff's limit HE guide, which makes some great observations of the "plays" at the 3/6 level but goes no higher.

ChezJ
my guide should say something like 'low limit guide' the medium stakes guide may take me a while consider I dont play them most of my games are at pacific and SB at 10/20 so they arent typical of the average party 10/20


Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 05-10-2005, 06:59 PM #16 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
my guide should say something like 'low limit guide' the medium stakes guide may take me a while consider I dont play them most of my games are at pacific and SB at 10/20 so they arent typical of the average party 10/20
Neither game is significantly tougher than the Party 3/6.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
Reply
Latest Poker News
KoRnholio Old 05-26-2012, 03:08 PM    Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ...

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:48 AM.

Contact Us - Archive - Top

FTR Testimonials

All content
© FlopTurnRiver.com 		Advertising  |   Partners  |   Testimonials  |   T&C  |   Contact Us  |   FTR News & Press  |   Site Map  |   Search FTR

Full Tilt  |   Titan Poker  |   UltimateBet  |   Poker Stars  |   Ladbrokes Bonus  |   Sportsbook  |   Cake Poker  

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum
This is not a gambling website.