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SmackinYaUp

08-27-2007, 04:01 AM Post subject: Vague PLO strategy questions

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: B N L

Posts: 1,725

Hi, I have a couple questions...I know there aren't cut and dry answers but any discussion of these two topics would help me out a lot. I'm playing .25/.50 if that makes any difference.

1. When should I be waiting until the turn to get it allin if I have the current nuts (without any redraws) but there are a lot of draws. Say I'm at a 6max table and flop the top straight on AdKdJs board without any redraws. Should I be waiting for a safe turn a lot of the time b4 I try to get it allin? The opponents are so loose that I'm not up against the exact current nuts + redraws as often as it would be at high stakes when I get action.

2. I have already realized that I play an extremely predictable game. That's ok at my stakes because everyone sucks. I have no problem mixing it up if I'm the one raising a draw or making a bluff. The problem is I am obvious because I will bet the flop to protect my hand but if a scare card comes and you bet into me, I will fold all the time. If I check behind on a drawy board and a scare card comes, it probably just hit me. What do I do to keep 400NL players from raping me when i get there?

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He who does not sin goes to Heaven.

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swiggidy

08-27-2007, 04:37 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Waiting in the shadows ...

Posts: 3,777

1) Getting it in with nut straight on flop can be gamboling if they're bad loose passive players. Getting it in on the turn will leave you with a bigger advantage.

Generally, when facing resistance...
I slow down with straights vs people who love sets and on 2 tone boards (you may be getting free-rolled).

I slow down with bottom set.

I slow play with no re-draws.

I fast play top set (even on straightish/flushy boards).

It helps to know what people are going ape shit with (i.e. Omaha is more read dependent). Some go apeshit with 2 pair, some only with top set+.

2) while a valid concern, that's an awfully big jump. Take a look at Salsa's blog (The Action Game). He's doing quite well. It gets into meta-game stuff and being comfortable stacking off repeatedly with 60/40 (or worse) edges.

If I think you're a moderately thinking player, I'm the one betting the scare card, etc. Maybe, try exploiting the people at your stakes instead of worrying about being exploited?

FWIW, playing PLO (even 25PLO) has drastically improved exploitation through hand reading, partially because villains make their hands so obvious (more so than holdem, IMO).

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

KoRnholio

08-27-2007, 04:40 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

Equally vague answers:

#1- Unless it's a limped pot (thus lots of money left to bet), you should pretty much always aim to get it all in on the flop, especially if you are out of position.

If the money is deep, you're in position and you're sure you're quite sure you're up against the same hand but you don't have any redraws, it may be best to call and see a turn card. Be careful not to let a 3rd guy in the pot draw even slightly cheaply though.

I had a hand to post here, but I can't find it for the life of me. Mostly a brag hand about a play I read where Doyle Brunson bet the turn with the nut straight, was raised, and just called. Brunson knew the guy had the same hand, but was prepared to bluff if the board paired on the end. The board did pair, Brunson bet out, and took the whole pot down when the other guy folded his straight.

My hand went down similarily, Villain A bet the turn (no flop bet), a tight passive player re-raised pot, and I smooth called my current nut straight (with no redraws). Virtually certain that he had the same hand. Villain A folded, river paired the board, villain B checked, I bet pot and he folded. I don't believe there were any flush draws on the turn, or else I would have raised it to prevent Villain A from outdrawing us.

#2- At 50PLO, when someone bets hard into you after the scare card comes, they almost always have what they are representing. From my experience, against most opponents, you aren't giving up much if you fold nearly always against scare cards when you're bet into.

I also usually give up on the turn way more than the river. If you have a set rather than a straight and the turn brings a 3 flush, calling might still be okay since you can improve to beat a flush. But with the straight, may as well give it up on the turn because the river is going to bring a bigger bet a large percent of the time. This is true whether he was bluffing the first time, or has the nuts. With a smaller flush he may check/check behind but a bet by you will likely get picked off.

If there are multiple draws on the turn, the river completes one of them, and you're faced with a big bet, sometimes you just have to look it up.

Example: (not sure why I didn't raise preflop, solid double suited hand even with 2 semi-dangler)

Cryptologic - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 10 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $145.58
BB: $31.50
UTG: $20.00
UTG+1: $54.50
UTG+2: $151.00
MP1: $118.49
MP2: $95.17
MP3: $81.50
MP1:: $0.00
UTG+2:: $0.00

Preflop: Hero (UTG+2, goofy converter) is dealt K

(8 Players)
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $1.00, MP1 raises to $4.50, 2 folds, SB calls $4.00, BB folds, UTG+2 calls $3.50

Flop: ($14.50) 4

(3 Players)
SB checks, UTG+2 bets $10.00, MP1 calls $10.00, SB folds

Turn: ($34.50) K

(2 Players)
UTG+2 bets $34.50, MP1 calls $34.50

River: ($103.50) 2

(2 Players)
UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets all-in for $69.49, UTG+2 calls $69.49

Pot Size: $242.48 ($3 Rake)

Here I was pretty sure this guy was on a heart/straight draw. No sense betting that river since he either has the back door flush (or even 53xx for the straight) or absolutely nothing. So he's not going to call unless he has me beat. It may also look to him like I was on a diamond draw (which I kind of was

) that missed.

The nature of PLO is such that a drawing hand will almost always call on the flop, and if the draw is big, call on the turn as well. It's very unlikely that the villain will play a vulnerable made hand (say a set or top 2 pair) slowly or passively, and then spring to life after a scare card hits.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

salsa4ever

08-27-2007, 08:40 AM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Melbourne

Posts: 1,073

here's some live examples of how you might mix your game up. I'm not saying my lines are optimal, but in every hand I give my thinking and reads and why I did what I did.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-56808.htm
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-55983.htm

Also shows you some of the moves that winning 400PLO players may start to pull on you if you're too predictable. If I get inspired enough, I might make a "PLO moves" post, but I'm not playing so much PLO nowadays. I've temporarily migrated to the hi-lo game.

(You're just starting out, so ABC is fine, but one of my favorite notes to put on someone is "ABC". 2nd only to "DWA", short for "dies with aces")

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?

SmackinYaUp

08-27-2007, 07:59 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: B N L

Posts: 1,725

Ok cool, thanks for taking the time to make these replies. PLO is an interesting game and it's been a refreshing change. I'm not sure what else to say right now other than a huge thanks. I'll be back with more Qs I'm sure

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

The nature of PLO is such that a drawing hand will almost always call on the flop, and if the draw is big, call on the turn as well. It's very unlikely that the villain will play a vulnerable made hand (say a set or top 2 pair) slowly or passively, and then spring to life after a scare card hits.

And that is exactly why I catch myself playing so predictably.

He who drinks beer sleeps well.
He who sleeps well cannot sin.
He who does not sin goes to Heaven.

KoRnholio

08-27-2007, 10:15 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

And that is exactly why I catch myself playing so predictably.[/quote]

Yeah, a huge difference between PLO and NLH is that there is far less bluffing and raising light. When the current nuts are ever changing (and often out there somewhere), you really have to pick your targets and spots before trying to move someone off a hand.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

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