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two quick line checks..

  
 
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Chopper
Old 09-22-2008, 06:26 PM     Post subject: two quick line checks.. #1 (permalink)  
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i feel like i am playing VERY well right now. i am calling down in a lot of spots and pouring on the gas in a lot of spots. also i see myself betting for thinner value more successfully. i dont know if its the cards, or me...but, it's starting to feel like it could be me actually improving. so, these are standard hands for most of you, i just want to see if the lines are logical.

assume no reads...

0.5/1 Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($24.80)
Hero ($19.15)
CO ($30.20)
BTN ($34.05)
SB ($44.10)
BB ($14.75)

Pre-flop: (1.5 SB, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1
1 fold, Hero raises, CO calls, BTN calls, 1 fold, BB calls

Flop: (8.5 SB, 4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BTN calls, BB calls

Turn: (6.2 BB, 4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, 1 fold, BB folds, [i][color=#777777]Hero ??


again, no reads...

0.5/1 Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($34.55)
UTG+1 ($44.60)
CO ($14.75)
BTN ($16.30)
Hero ($24.50)
BB ($32.95)

Pre-flop: (1.5 SB, 6 players) Hero is SB
3 folds, BTN raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, BTN calls

Flop: (9.0 SB, 3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, BTN raises, Hero calls, BB calls

Turn: (7.5 BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, BTN bets, Hero raises, BB folds, BTN 3-bets, Hero calls

River: (13.5 BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero calls, Hero says "ick"

Final Pot: 15.5 BB
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Chopper
Old 09-22-2008, 06:39 PM #2 (permalink)  
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hand one...i felt there was no way i was still ahead with this many players in the pot, and therefore, it wasnt even worth calling down since the pot was going to get big. incredibly weak?

hand two...another big pot brewing and i decided that BB wasnt folding his flush draw, and i couldnt deny him odds. if i 3bet, and he calls, BTN likely caps and the pot is HUGE to where i cant do anything on the turn, either. if i wait for a safe turn card, maybe i can check/raise and force BB to pay a larger price and take BTN on HU. when BTN 3bets, i figure i'm in trouble and plan to c/c river. logical?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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cardsman1992
Old 09-22-2008, 06:39 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Been a long time since I played limit....

I think I fold the first and call the second.

However, I fully expect I am behind a good deal in hand 2. Probably win JUST enough long term to warrant the call.
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DrivingDog
Old 09-22-2008, 07:19 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I take different lines here myself.

1) Leading that turn into three opponents is spewish. What are you trying to accomplish here? You're rarely going to get value from worse hands, and hands like AJ, AT, KQ will hammer you. I check and see the action behind me. If it's a single bet I call and probably fold the river UI. If it's bet and raised behind me I fold.

2) I 3bet the flop. We probably have the best hand, and waiting to c/r the turn OOP is not optimal because villian might take a free card with a hand like A8, A7, FD, or overs, especially if a broadway comes that misses him. If it's capped on the flop then just call down. If not, and you lead the turn and he raises again, that's bad news but I think you still have to call down because of the possibility of TT-QQ.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Fnord
Old 09-22-2008, 07:59 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Hand 2: Lead the turn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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DrivingDog
Old 09-22-2008, 09:25 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Hand 2: Lead the turn.
...and if he raises the turn call down?
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Fnord
Old 09-22-2008, 09:35 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
...and if he raises the turn call down?
Depends if he's the sort of person you would need to call down in that spot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Chopper
Old 09-22-2008, 10:26 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
I take different lines here myself.

1) Leading that turn into three opponents is spewish. What are you trying to accomplish here? You're rarely going to get value from worse hands, and hands like AJ, AT, KQ will hammer you. I check and see the action behind me. If it's a single bet I call and probably fold the river UI. If it's bet and raised behind me I fold.

2) I 3bet the flop. We probably have the best hand, and waiting to c/r the turn OOP is not optimal because villian might take a free card with a hand like A8, A7, FD, or overs, especially if a broadway comes that misses him. If it's capped on the flop then just call down. If not, and you lead the turn and he raises again, that's bad news but I think you still have to call down because of the possibility of TT-QQ.
yeah, i agree that hand one was a bit poor. but, nonetheless, the fold was warranted as played, imo.

i saw a ton of overly aggressive TP and a crazy amount of draw-betting today. and, for the past few sessions, tbh. i dont know if its a factor of playing .50/1 again or what, but one thing i can absolutely count on out of these clowns is that they WILL overplay their hands big time. hence, the c/r on the turn. i felt strongly enough he would fire after BB checked, that i could raise then, in a smaller pot, and deliver 5.25:1 instead of 7.5:1 by waiting for the turn. my plan was any non-club and any non-A i would c/r. of course, i put BTN almost squarely on a 9 when he 3bets me. but, the pot was so large, QQ- and flush draws were still a slight possibility.

can you, dog, and fnord help me to understand your lines a bit better? i felt mine punished draws harder in a big pot and allowed max take by waiting for bets to double. i understand i forewent a bit of equity on the flop by passing up the 3bet/cap, but again, didnt want to bloat a huge pot for the passive BB when i had a hand that still felt strong, but vulnerable.

3betting the flop, i understand.

but, leading turn? do i just plan to call a raise? is the intention there to let him turn JJ/FD into a bluff? or do we plan to 3bet and cap the turn, too, because of equity?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Fnord
Old 09-22-2008, 10:33 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Checking the turn risks the hands you want to "punish" checking behind getting in zero bets good. Also, the nine pairing gins a fair % of your opponent's raising range on that flop.

Betting then making a call-down vs fold decision based on your opponent seems the best line.

3-betting the flop is fine, but you're pushing a thin edge and will make folding later in the hand a bigger potential mistake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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DrivingDog
Old 09-22-2008, 11:38 PM #10 (permalink)  
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On 1, you cost yourself one BB for a 0% chance of winning the pot (bet/fold). If you c/c you pay the same price and give yourself a chance to win. Folding to the turn raise is actually worse than c/c because you are getting a better price to call a raise than a single bet, but like i said life's easier if you don't let yourself get into that spot in the first place.


On 2, it's a 3way flop. If you 3bet the flop you stand a better chance of knocking out any goofy Ax, 8x, 7x, or bd draw hands that BB has, or at least letting him make a mistake by calling two cold without odds.

I wouldn't call KK on a 965 flop a thin edge exactly...btn could be feeling good about a lot of hands here - A9, A8, A7, 98, K9, J9, T9, FD, TT, JJ, QQ, only a few hands we're in bad shape against like AA, 99, 87s etc., and a few FDs were drawing even with like AcXc. Overall I think our edge is pretty solid.

But whether you 3bet or smooth call the flop, I think Fnord is right that the important thing is not to risk having the turn get checked around. That is a huge scare card for anyone without a 9, and giving a free card to crappy draws is never a good idea.

Finally, I'm not folding KK here ever unless I'm pretty damn sure someone has me beat already, as in my read is that Btn is a nit or some really bad shit goes down on the turn.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Chopper
Old 09-23-2008, 03:14 AM #11 (permalink)  
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k thanks, guys. i appreciate the detail. i hope it sticks this time.

one thing more to dog, tho...

you say, " Folding to the turn raise is actually worse than c/c because you are getting a better price to call a raise than a single bet."

i understand that betting and being somewhat surprised by a raise (not the case here) DOES give you odds to call sometimes. but, doesnt that raise usually give us the information we are looking for to make a fold DESPITE the odds since it defines a hand/range much more clearly? w/o a strong draw or redraw, i dont usually even figure the odds. i just try and make some form of read on whether my villain is the type that only raises something that beats me or is the type to semibluff raise. does that make any sense, or is that another thing to work on? if so, how?

things like this make me feel like i'm getting there very slowly, but still have forever to go. it also makes me feel like the others out there are so horrid it amazes me that i feel i have an actual edge as i continue to climb stakes slowly. i still see stuff at .50/1 and 1/2 that blow my mind with the stupidity on a regular basis.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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bigspenda73
Old 09-23-2008, 04:10 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 is my calculator broken or does the math say call the turn in hand 1?
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DrivingDog
Old 09-23-2008, 04:54 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Getting 9:1 I'd say it's pretty close but yes.

Hard to count outs and implied odds are pretty nebulous, but we only need a little less than 6 clean outs on average to call that. We have 10 outs to two pair or better, and given the action I'd probably count it as around 6-7 outs to the best hand.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Fnord
Old 09-23-2008, 05:10 AM #14 (permalink)  
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CO's hand looks a lot like KQ, although we have one blocker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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DrivingDog
Old 09-23-2008, 07:25 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
CO's hand looks a lot like KQ, although we have one blocker.
It does look bad, assuming sensible villian. If it was at a higher level I'd prolly say just give it up.

Still, this is .5/1 so he could be doing some silly things like raising KT or whatever. He might also do some more silly things on the river.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Chopper
Old 09-23-2008, 01:24 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
CO's hand looks a lot like KQ, although we have one blocker.
how are we putting CO on such a tight range based on limited action?

sure, KQ is in there, but isnt ATs, 66, JT, A6, hell AX at this level, or even a bluffy 89s or worse?

i think i am one of the few, at this level, that adjusts my "bluffing" to how many players are in a hand. i think any A brings violence once the aggressor shuts it down; they seem to spring to life with their reflex actions. i even see horrible semibluffs with a hand like KT here.

as for my "clean" outs, i dont see near that many. i see that Q being dirty as hell, and if it IS KQ, my 3rd J is pretty crappy, too. i give myself between 3 and 5 outs...leaning towards 5. and, i dont think 9:1 is enough to call here. although, its close, i could catch my Q and lose. i could catch an A and lose to trips. both of which cost me. and, i dont know if i get more than one bet if i spike that J....and, i could still lose that to KQ.

just seemed like an iffy situation that could become potentially dangerous, especially since i thought that turn raise was an A at the minimum.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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