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Two mores hands for everyone to critique...be harsh

  
 
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bigspenda73
Old 07-19-2006, 06:30 AM     Post subject: Two mores hands for everyone to critique...be harsh #1 (permalink)  
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 Micros at Titan, loose passive as normal, won 40BB/hr tonight, not that it's any money, but it's nice to win in general, and I am starting to view them more as BBs and not actually $'s

Hand 1:
Hero is MP2 with 8s7s
UTG calls, 3 folds, hero calls, 2 folds, BN calls, SB folds, BB checks

Flop: 3d9c10d
BB bets, UTG calls, hero calls, BN folds

Turn: 7c
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls
-hero has now gained position and is still playing like a pussy

River: Jc
BB bets, UTG calls, hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls

Total Pot: 12.75BB

Hand 2:
Hero is Button with As6s
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls

Flop: Qs9h3s
UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, CO folds, Hero raises, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls

Turn: Kc
UTG+2 bets, hero calls

River: Js
UTG+2 bets, hero raises, UTG+2 3bets, Hero caps, UTG+2 calls

Total Pot: 16.75BB

OK, here is my thinking on each hand and I would like to know if I am totally way off base.

Hand 1, its not the nut straight draw, hell it's not the nut draw period, there is a flush draw present. I don't raise the flop for this reason, I could raise the turn for value but I dont want anyone leaving this pot. The river completes my straight and brings a third club. However, after the aggressor bets and the other player just calls I cannot figure anyone for a bigger straight of flush so I raise. I think my turn play was poor, am I correct?

Hand 2:

I flop the nut flush draw but it doesnt seem to be a board I can jam. I still raise for value believing to have +EV with more than 1 other player in the pot. When the turn comes a blank and the third player folds then my EV decreases and I just smooth call. The river is a perfect card and I cannot believe my opponent would cap it with me. Luckily he was poor and kept raising with a bad 2 pair.

Thanks for any help, I really could use it.
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thenonsequitur
Old 07-19-2006, 08:57 AM     Post subject: Re: Two mores hands for everyone to critique...be harsh #2 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Hand 1, its not the nut straight draw, hell it's not the nut draw period, there is a flush draw present. I don't raise the flop for this reason
It's not the nut draw, but it's still a strong draw. If you raise and everyone calls you've still got enough equity that you're getting value, even though your draw isn't to the nuts. And also by raising you sometime buy yourself the button and/or a free card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I could raise the turn for value but I dont want anyone leaving this pot.
Actually your draw on the turn is not very big, and you don't have many opponents. I don't see how a raise can be justified. Just throwing out numbers here (making 'em up, but they sound reasonable), I would put discounted outs at 3.5 outs to a 6, 2.5 outs to a J, 2 outs to a 7, and .5 outs to an 8, for a total of 8.5 outs. You need something around twice that to have enough equity to raise with only two opponents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
The river completes my straight and brings a third club. However, after the aggressor bets and the other player just calls I cannot figure anyone for a bigger straight of flush so I raise.
Yup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Hand 2:
I think I fold preflop here, and I like having one more cold-caller in front of me to make this call. But if the table is super-loose like you describe, you can expect the EP players to not necessarily have strong hands (as they would if they were tight and entering the pot from EP), and you can expect SB and BB to usually come along for the ride, so a call isn't bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I flop the nut flush draw but it doesnt seem to be a board I can jam. I still raise for value believing to have +EV with more than 1 other player in the pot.
I like the raise. If UTG calls, then yes, you have enough equity that you are getting a little bit of value. If UTG folds, then you just bought yourself a likely free card (it didn't happen this time, but frequently does). So either way a raise is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
When the turn comes a blank and the third player folds then my EV decreases and I just smooth call.
Yup. Not enough pot equity + fold equity to raise, but definitely enough pot equity to call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
The river is a perfect card and I cannot believe my opponent would cap it with me. Luckily he was poor and kept raising with a bad 2 pair.
nh.
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6high
Old 07-19-2006, 07:20 PM #3 (permalink)  
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6high
Both are standard.

As you move up, your preflop calls in both hands will become more marginal.
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bigspenda73
Old 07-19-2006, 11:00 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Yea, while I was typing up the history I realized I didnot like the cold calling with the A6s. I think it goes to show why typing out or writing down your hand histories can really make you stop and think about your play. I got away with it once, but thats a marginal call to be making often, and I have been making it quite often. I dont really hate my limp with 8s7s in this game, but as you said if I keep moving up to higher limits it may be a hand to fold at a TAG table.
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pnkyandthebrain
Old 08-05-2006, 11:33 PM #5 (permalink)  

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pnkyandthebrain
Hand 1: You flopped the open-ended straight draw. It is not the nut, but then again you aren't playing to the same cards as your opponents. Assuming that your opponent is reasonable, they are not trying to draw to J (meaning they would be holding QK), so you aren't drawing to the same cards. (They could have JQ and be drawing to the higher straight, but my point is that you aren't drawing to the same cards, and so you will know if they have completed their hand, and that it is time to fold). Therefore, you have two cards that will make your hand, and a good likelihood that either card (J or 7) will give you the best hand. By the 2x4 rule, you have a 4x8 = approx. 32% chance of catching a J or a 7 between the turn and river.
(You can read about 2x4 rule here: http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/odds2.php)

These are good odds, so I would raise on the flop. The turn doesn't really help you, however I might raise again, as you are still sitting on approx. 17% odds of hitting your straight, plus you now have a pair, with the outside chance to hit trips.

On the river, you complete, and based on the previous logic, probably have the nut hand, even if it isn't the true nut. If you have been raising aggresively, hopefully the flush draw has folded, since odds on the flop are bad for the flush.
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euphoricism
Old 08-05-2006, 11:47 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I fold hand 1 preflop unless I think lots of people are coming in behind me. With 3 folds in front, there just are not enough villains. Only 3.5:1 on your call here.
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