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two hands today...(one slowplayed for lawdude)

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Chopper

06-25-2009, 02:40 AM Post subject: two hands today...(one slowplayed for lawdude)

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i dont play at stars often anymore, but i had no traffic at all on cake. so, i jumped over to log some hands and see what happened. stars' 25c/50c 6max games are fishier than cake!! on 3 tables, i had 10 players over 45% vpip and only 2 players that could be remotely considered aggressive. it was insane. 5way raised pots....then call downs?? pitiful. but, i played anyway, and may go back soon because your monsters pay off big time. in fact, it plays more like fr, imo. anyhoo, to the hands...

first hand was against a 53/6/6 player (the one that goes to showdown). the third player was a 90/0/1 station from hell.

i want you to see the c/r, check turn, and bluff river. this is an awful line....that almost worked. had he followed it up with a turn bet, i may have bailed out if the station called. i cant imagine it being anything other than sets or two pair on such a dry flop. since he checked, i took the free river; and when he donked, i felt it was a huge bluff that waited too long to fire again after his stupid c/r didnt work out. but, i called because the station didnt have me beat, and there was a lot of dead money in the pot....so, i dont have to win this very often to make it correct to call, even if i am almost sure i am beat (another debate we have had multiple times). i show the results only because there is no decision and because i figure you would like proof that this is a stupider than stupid c/r into 3 players, one of which is a classic station.

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is CO with A

, K

1 fold, MP calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, MP calls

Flop: (6.4 SB) K

, 2

, 8

(3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets, BB raises, MP calls, Hero calls

Turn: (6.2 BB) 8

(3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero checks

River: (6.2 BB) 9

(3 players)
BB bets, MP calls, Hero calls

Total pot: $4.60 (9.2 BB) | Rake: $0.20

Results:
BB had 10

, A

(one pair, eights).
MP had 4

, 9

(two pair, nines and eights).
Hero had A

, K

(two pair, Kings and eights).
Outcome: Hero won $4.40

now, for the fun one...

a raised family pot??? we'll see what to do with QQ here. if it checks to me, i am not sure what the best play is. but, since it goes bet, raise, i think its standard to RR here and try to force the remaining players out or pay a hefty price. granted, i am already thinking flush draw and/or set, but i am only trying to maxx out my chances to win here. a nice 3 cold call, but at least we got two out. i am not even sure how much i like the turn card, but i know i am not folding now.

i decide to check because i am only trying to keep the pot down, if possible since the bettor and raiser checked (wtf?). i figure the 4th player will check, unless he hit the flush. betting will not get any folds, and may lead to a c/r if the first player led with a flush draw on the flop. thing is, i dont know what to do if that happened, so i just check and look for a brickish river card or the board to pair up.

instead i get my yahtzee card. hand plays itself out from here. but, i am not going for overcallers here since there could easily be a boat or flush in here that would be willing to overplay their hand thinking any aggression is trips or a flush overplaying THEIR hand. feed the confusion and jam it up.

i think the "slowplay" is effective here, but i didnt do it to slowplay. i did it to control what may be a wicked pot where i had no clue where i stood with the action leading up to this point. it may be bad not to bet here, but i actually think it worked....only because i caught my case card.

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q

, Q

UTG calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls

Flop: (12 SB) 9

, 5

, 2

(6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls

Turn: (12 BB) Q

(4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, CO checks

River: (12 BB) Q

(4 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG calls

Total pot: $12 (24 BB) | Rake: $0.40

Results:
BB mucked 2

, 2

(full house, twos over Queens).
UTG mucked 5

, 3

(two pair, Queens and fives).
Hero had Q

, Q

(four of a kind, Queens).
Outcome: Hero won $11.60

i'll take debates on the 2nd hand because i honestly had no idea what to do on the turn.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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Chopper

06-25-2009, 02:53 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

in hand two, if you hit your set on this flop, how do you not cap it???? your equity is great on this flop, and you will easily see flush chasers, on which you have a great redraw. just dumb.

40% to win the hand when you have 4 players paying buttloads to see the turn (25% share).

and, you can see who the same station was...the one open/limping 53o UTG and raising his pair of 5's in a raised pot on a flushy flop INTO a family pot. ...well protected, dude.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

KoRnholio

06-25-2009, 03:03 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

Personally I gas the turn in both.

1) How can you say you think most of his range is sets on that board? Even in fullring I either 3bet the flop or (usually) call and raise the turn, trapping the station for at least 1 more bet. You are good like always against the station, and almost always against the other guy. That 8 isnt that scary.

2) Even if someone has the flush already, we have great equity in the pot. Gotta bet to charge the mofos with a single spade draws.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Chopper

06-25-2009, 04:19 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

i dont see worse K's c/r here often at this level. so, i feel its a big hit to c/r two players. i dont have a read that he is a complete dumbass yet.

that said, i did pull my finger off the 3bet button, only because i noticed the dry flop. had this had connected cards or suits, i 3bet here almost every time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

2) Even if someone has the flush already, we have great equity in the pot. Gotta bet to charge the mofos with a single spade draws.

i thought about the perils of giving the single spades the free card, but felt the pot was so big, they werent folding. and, i didnt feel i had the best hand the way the flop went. (i knew there was a good chance, but i didnt know how likely against that action) and, i felt a c/r would charge me two to see if the board paired and pay the river. i just didnt know where i was, and didnt know what to do here. i felt like a wuss, and it felt wrongish, but i also felt a c/r very likely, and didnt want to see that coming either.

if this is HU, i feel much better about the hand and dont take my foot off the gas when the Q drops. however, into 4 players, i dont feel a bet protects my hand much and i was trying to get to a cheaper showdown since the flush was up. the thought process is likely flawed because we probably bet the turn and re-evaluate when check/raised.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

LawDude

06-25-2009, 07:42 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Hand 1:

I 3-bet the flop. Often times, raises from the blinds don't mean big cards. They mean that the player in the blind thinks you are stealing.

I bet the turn as well.

As played, river call is fine.

Hand 2 looks correctly played.

arborman

07-01-2009, 06:28 AM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 300

Hand 1 I play much the same and note that the guy is an idiot.

Hand 2: Maybe I'm a spewmonkey but I just can't see myself failing to bet a turn that gives me a set of queens, and who cares what the board looks like. Sure, sometimes you get checkraised by a made flush (and then I call down), but lots of those times you pick up one of your ten outs to the nuts and make the flush pay off bigtime, along with anyone else who has some kind of hand. You could just as easily be checkraised by a lower set (and you probably would have been in this hand).

At least some of the turn betters and callers will be someone with 4 to the flush getting excited in the big pot. And anyone else with a lone spade is going to call for another bet or even two, making you more money (likely CO).

I'm just not seeing hand 2 as correctly played from the turn onwards, though I'd have been pretty nervous on the flop.

Chopper

07-01-2009, 01:40 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i guess the reason i felt the checking of the turn was "effective" was because the action went ballistic on the river. and, otherwise, i dont think it would have. i ended up getting lucky and catching two guys for 4 BBs each.

if i bet the turn, call the raise, and raise the river when he donks it, i dont think i make as much.

i agree it wasnt likely played "correctly," but i got lucky and i think made the max because of it. that's why i posted the hand.....to show how these guys will still overplay their hands. the underboat, i see, but the other guy was just bad.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

DrivingDog

07-01-2009, 10:38 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: UK

Posts: 923

I think you're seeing too many monsters under the bed in both hands Chop. Not everyone who c/r's a flop has a set and not everyone who donks a flop has a FD and wants to c/r the turn when it hits. You need to be willing to get your ass handed to you some of the time in order to get value from your good hands all the rest of the time. Can't wait around for the nuts.

hand 1) I just say 'wtf' and bet the turn hoping he has KQ or KJ and raises again or calls down or whatever. The other guy's going to put money in drawing dead as well so betting can't be bad. I'm also tempted to raise the river just because his line smells so bad.

hand 2) Bet the turn. Call a raise and call down if you don't improve or raise if you do. I think you missed a couple bets there. (btw, lmfao at UTG).

I think slowplaying any good hand at these stakes is almost never a good idea since these guys will give you action with all kinds of crap.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

Chopper

07-03-2009, 03:21 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

seems you've been telling me that for over a year now. lol. cant get it all the way into my head, but i can tell you i am a better player than i was last year.

like i said, though, that first hand i checked because the board was so dry and the c/r really surprised me. if there were draws up, i 3bet the flop. however, dont you think this induced a bluff from BB here? i dont think MP ever raises w/o the nuts, given him being such a station. but, i do think BB folds to a turn bet here, and being oop, he felt he had to fire to have any chance at winning the hand.

i am contemplating what you are saying about the c/r and sets, but i cant get past what i see. if i see it from an unknown, i give it respect and likely call down, especially if its a turn c/r, and then take a note...again, on dry boards. if the board is coordinated, i dont fear getting my ass handed to me. however, if i have a read on the guy as aggro, or the table is wildly more aggro than the norm, i play this hand much harder. i just dont see c/r's that often, unless i am the one doing so. i just wonder how much of this i fold to when i shouldnt while waiting for a read? i dont make it a habit to fold TPTK w/o a good read. but, this would get me off mid pair fairly easily.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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two hands today...(one slowplayed for lawdude)

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