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tweener question...

  
 
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Chopper
Old 01-19-2010, 10:43 PM     Post subject: tweener question... #1 (permalink)  
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Location: St. Louis, MO
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Chopper
had KTo

4way and i complete in sb.

flop of AhThJd. i check, bb checks, bet, call, i raise wanting to thin players out with a dirty board and some outs (i figure about 6ish cause they arent all clean), fold, fold, call, fold.

HU on turn with flop bettor. 4d falls. i check/call.

river is 3s. i c/f.


i thought my reasoning to thin the flop was solid, but loosey goosey. but, shouldnt i try and take the pot away if i c/r that flop? however, what the hell calls me that i beat, a flush draw?

if i have no intention of taking it away, or i chicken out, shouldnt i just play passively?

this is kind of a "caught between" hand. but, i am wondering if it isnt still right to thin the field (aka buy outs), and play passively from there since anything that calls has me beat?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Prolaznik
Old 01-20-2010, 12:18 PM #2 (permalink)  

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Prolaznik
You wanted to thin the field, so you could play HU out of position?
(With smallest pair and not very resourceful straight possibilities)

Even if you have the button, after bet and call, folding sounds pretty reasonable to me (though I'd stay with Kh). Being SB, I'd fold without a second thought.

Betting on turn seems better to me (than check/calling). But again, I like check/fold the best.

You just had the worst possible position and not so good cards in this hand. Throwing such hands early is a healthy habit, IMHO...
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LawDude
Old 01-20-2010, 09:16 PM #3 (permalink)  
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LawDude
Essentially, I think you should only check-raise this pot if you are committed to either showdown unimproved or are taking one shot to steal the pot (i.e., only continuing if you improve or the pot odds justify it). Because otherwise, you are heads up out of position putting in too many bets with a probable second best hand.

So, there's 5 small bets in the pot on the flop and you are giving yourself 6 outs. The correct play here is "fold", because if anyone has an ace they are calling or 3-betting and you are way behind. But if you must check-raise, it's got to be because you either think you are going to fold them out or that you have the best hand and are willing to show it down. Otherwise, the pot's way too small.

If I can say something more generally, I suspect the "check-raising with middle pair" gambit is almost always going to be counterproductive on boards with an ace out in multi-way pots. And the reason is because oftentimes the reason multi-way pots get that way is because people don't like to fold their weaker aces pre-flop and limp them. It's fairly rare that the ace comes out and doesn't hit anyone in a multi-way pot.

You'll still capture some of that equity when you are ahead because the ace will tend to deter betting and the hand will get checked around, allowing you to evaluate what to do on the turn. And you'll also capture some equity when the big blind leads out and everyone calls, giving you decent pot odds to continue. But you're out of position, which means you are sometimes going to be forced to fold the best hand.
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Chopper
Old 01-20-2010, 09:57 PM #4 (permalink)  
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As you can see, I really didn't like the situation I put myself in. I got caught up with potential outs and fired too aggressively too soon pinning myself in a very marginal situation. That was the story of the entire session and the way the cards were hitting me. Consequently, i bled off some serious jackola, and quickly bailed on the session and did a "HH review." This one stood out as the worst hand I played.

There was hardly any way the caller didn't have the A, but I didn't even try and take it from any other hand with another bet or raise later on. Truly a donk move by me.

I was more disappointed that I didn't go down with the ship, and instead let a weak/tight tendency dominate a previously overly aggro decision. It's this "worst of both worlds" position that causes some leaks in me. I just need to get quicker at identifying them.

Thanks for the comments, guys.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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daven
Old 01-20-2010, 10:59 PM #5 (permalink)  
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daven will become famous soon enough
 check-raising is bad on this flop without much fold equity nor clean outs. What are you repping? what range this way? c-c or c-f depending on pot odds. As played bet-fold turn way better than c-c.
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Chopper
Old 01-21-2010, 04:45 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
check-raising is bad on this flop without much fold equity nor clean outs. What are you repping? what range this way? c-c or c-f depending on pot odds. As played bet-fold turn way better than c-c.
like i said, it was a bit of a donkey move. the original idea was crossed up. i didnt even think of c/r'ing until the opportunity arose, and i snapped the button before giving it proper thought.

i initially thought, "thin the field and buy outs." and, that was quickly followed by, "but, wait, how many outs are clean? that's a pretty nasty board. who folds? well, facing two cold, some will fold...after all they checked. and, those that call may build a bigger pot if the right outs fall (gamboolers mindset and really bad). besides, if i am going to call, raising HAS to be better than calling."

and, that final thought is what sealed my fate.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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