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socal1111

01-16-2009, 05:21 AM Post subject: Turn Decision

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2008

Posts: 191

Live $40/80 at Commerce.

BB and I have ton of history. He's break-even player in the game. He's very tight preflop, but passive postflop. He's raised twice in 3 hours - both times, AA. I rarely get involved with him, because when he's in a pot, he NEVER gets out of line, and very often has the nutz.

SB is terrible, but my only history is this session.

I open AhQh UTG, MP cc'd, SB and BB call.

FLOP (4 handed)
Jh,3h,9c
Checked to me, I bet, MP folds, SB and BB call. (I now have position)...

TURN (3 handed)
Jd
Checked to me. I ??

"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle

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bigspenda73

01-16-2009, 05:46 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

mehhhhhh

Actually, I think in a 3-way pot if someone has a jack they're much more likely to lead the turn therefore I'm not too worried about getting c/r'ed.

DrivingDog

01-16-2009, 11:11 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: UK

Posts: 923

I'm betting this. You're ahead a lot here imo. The board is very drawy, SB is less likely to get frisky on a semibluff with BB left to act behind him, and it's easy to fold to a c/r from BB (which I'm not expecting either).

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

socal1111

01-16-2009, 03:44 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2008

Posts: 191

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

How can I possibly fold to a c/r from BB? I've still got nut hearts.

"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle

DrivingDog

01-16-2009, 04:08 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: UK

Posts: 923

YOu can't. I didn't see that because you're not using a converter.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

Chopper

01-16-2009, 06:38 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i dont see a c/r coming either, unless its from BB turning his J up prematurely. and, i will fire any paired card when i have the initiative like this. i think its a solid semibluff with 9+ outs.

i dont see how you cant bet this. especially YOU.

if i sit with you, and you check this, i just call the floorman over and demand he look up your sleeve for the other 4 jacks you have stashed in there.

after all, the only thing i see you slowplay is 6ofakind!

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

DrivingDog

01-16-2009, 06:41 PM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: UK

Posts: 923

Yeah I mean it's kind of an obvious bet with those opponents and that board.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

socal1111

01-17-2009, 07:32 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2008

Posts: 191

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

Yeah I mean it's kind of an obvious bet with those opponents and that board.

On the turn, BB hesitated (for 3 seconds), and stared at me before he checked. Does this change anything?

"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle

Chopper

01-17-2009, 07:39 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by socal1111

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

Yeah I mean it's kind of an obvious bet with those opponents and that board.

On the turn, BB hesitated (for 3 seconds), and stared at me before he checked. Does this change anything?

prolly does to you. but, i dont know the guy. if he stared and checked to me, i may have to call him a name or something.

a simple, "sup, fag? i bet," works wonders in these spots....lol....j/k.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

DrivingDog

01-17-2009, 09:40 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: UK

Posts: 923

Let me guess - when he stared at you you saw his cards reflected in his contact lenses and knew right away you were drawing dead to J9.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

socal1111

01-17-2009, 10:39 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2008

Posts: 191

LOL, DD and Chopper!

This is why I love poker so much - When does the "obvious play" get overridden by instinct, gut feeling, or unconventional read?

There's probably no way of conveying my 'concern' of BB on a post here, but something just didn't feel right.

*If I bet turn, and both blinds call, I'm done.
*If I bet turn, and SB calls, I'm not worried
*If I bet turn, and BB calls, I'm beat more than I'm good (his look makes me think he wants me to bet - he views me as too aggressive)

*If I check turn... I'm calling, UI to SB's river bet... folding UI to BB's river bet (he's never betting UI)

"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle

Chopper

01-17-2009, 11:34 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

on a serious note, based on your read:

i actually would say something and fire at him. reason: "he never gets out of line and when he's in a pot, he often has the nutz."

so, i am thinking he is trying to buy a free card with his "stare." you know...act of aggression is weakness tell. seems to me he is acting tough on purpose. if he rarely gets out of line, he is rarely bluffing. to me, that means he doesnt know how to bluff....so, he pulls one of the obvious tells out of his bag of tricks.

so, i pull one right back on him because he isnt likely in the situation often enough to deal with it correctly. i have outs to beat him even if he has the J, but i think he is scared of it and trying to represent it because he knows that i know he doesnt bluff. but, he isnt willing to bluff with any money because he's a rock. so, he resorts to a "stare" as his feeble attempt to get a free card...and a cheap showdown. if he calls my bet, i am likely good with most of my outs. if he raises me, i need a heart that doesnt pair the board. anything different that those 2 scenarios and, against THIS guy, i dont care what my pot odds are....i am done with the hand.

my .02....errrrr $80.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

socal1111

01-18-2009, 05:53 PM

#13 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2008

Posts: 191

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

my .02....errrrr $80.

LLOOOOLL!

I ignored my instinct, and bet. SB folded, BB raised!

Sometimes the "correct" mathematical play isn't always the one we should follow.

That voice in our ear is there for a reason. The difficult part is trying to figure out whether that voice is acting out of fear, or from subtle patterns our opponents are falling into.

"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle

Chopper

01-18-2009, 09:36 PM

#14 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by socal1111

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

my .02....errrrr $80.

FYP & deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Trons

01-18-2009, 10:02 PM

#15 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2009

Posts: 86

Well, I'll be honest, I check here more then I bet. Not because of the "scare card" but because I want the free card. I can get away from the river "Bluff"/bet. If you check, and anybody bets on the river, it's 5.5:1 to call and easy snap fold.

By betting on the turn, we can hope for a free showdown, but I don't want a showdown UI. Yeah, it's kind of playing our cards face up, but it's still a good way to play IMO.

As far as gut feeling overriding mathmatically correct play, I would never let my "gut" get in the way of a 7.5:1 call with a nut FD. If your gut tells you that even if you hit you're beat is, IMO, a great reason to play scared and fold hands that you should be playing.

Having said that about gut feelings, there is a difference between allowing your gut to dictate you're play and letting you're read dictate you're play.

I say we differentiate these because when you're gut say ssomething and you have no basis for it, then Math is the way to go. If you get involved in a hand were your read is "This guy never bluffs" Then you shouldn't start believeing he's bluffing because you're in the hand.

In this particular situation, I don't think the CR indicates a boat, it indicates a TP (on the flop) that hit trips on the turn. His call on the flop suggested that he had a hand and wanted to see some other cards. Had he had two pair on the flop, why wouldn't he CR you then. SB has already commited to your bet, and a CR there could get 2 more sb's in the pot assuming you're not on an over pair and you three bet him (which I would do with AA, KK, QQ).

If he's on a hand like KJ and hit the trips, then you're FD is still good and a call is warrented by the pot odds...there are a lot of hands that you beat out there that even a great player would play in the exact same situation and J9 and a PP that hit a set on the flop are just a very few of them. I say you don't play scared, call his turn CR and see the river.

UI on the river, because of your read, you'll be getting abour 9.5:1 on the almost assured river bet, but you're floating A high at that point and I think you can let it go (I'd let it go without a read UI and getting 10:1...just one of those things, I don't mind calling if I think I'm beat but I have a hand...Ahigh isn't a hand...not with this board.)...

That's just my take on the situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

Trons is right!

Jsttrons

06-12-2009, 02:48 PM

#16 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

I fold in this situation that my outs are not many

LawDude

06-12-2009, 04:53 PM

#17 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

mehhhhhh

Actually, I think in a 3-way pot if someone has a jack they're much more likely to lead the turn therefore I'm not too worried about getting c/r'ed.

Spenda, in a LIMIT forum? What's the world coming to?

Chopper

06-12-2009, 05:20 PM

#18 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

oh yeah, he visits from time to time. he even played in a game for regulars we tried to get going awhile back.

hmmmm, we need to do one again soon. but, i dont know that we have the volume here now.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

07-07-2009, 05:41 PM

#19 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

i prefer to fold

BennyLaRue

07-07-2009, 06:39 PM

#20 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2007

Posts: 646

BennyLaRue is a glorious beacon of light

Yes, folding when it is checked to you is a powerful move.

08-14-2009, 06:25 PM

#21 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

the turn if you get bad cards beneficisa hahaha this is true for me that happens all the time lucky

09-14-2009, 03:27 PM

#22 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

fold if you dont have a great hand

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