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turn check with an overpair?

  
 
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Pingviini
Old 04-28-2006, 07:35 AM     Post subject: turn check with an overpair? #1 (permalink)  
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I am thinking that a turn check here might accomplish two things. firstly it saves 2 bets when I am behind, and it might induce a bluff or would at least get a call from A high. Or do I just keep betting?
converter screwed up but he checked to me on turn.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K.
Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) J, J, 7 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 8 (2 players)

Final Pot: 3.50 BB
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midas06
Old 04-28-2006, 07:45 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I'd bet here, just so I don't miss bets when I'm ahead.
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Ltrain
Old 04-28-2006, 12:19 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Bet the turn. If you think he has Ace High, most players will call the turn bet and re-evaluate on the river since many players in your position will checkthrough the river for a cheap showdown if they don't have the goods.
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Xanadu
Old 04-28-2006, 04:38 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I'd hate not to charge a 9, T, or A for his 3 or 4 outer.
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outphase
Old 04-28-2006, 04:39 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Bet to know if you're behind the J
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
 
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stuck
Old 04-28-2006, 04:49 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Bet, most definately
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mike4066
Old 04-28-2006, 07:59 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Take your skirt off and bet..

Ah ping, the NL player in the LHE game..

If you get CR'd I'd probably call down.

See that the great thing about LHE you can call down cheaply
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euphoricism
Old 04-28-2006, 08:21 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Meh.

It really matters what you think SB's preflop call means. If he's got Ace high he should be folding (reads....), so a check here doesn't bother me .. particularly if it induces a bluff from a guy who wouldn't have given you another bet otherwise. (or if he calls with A high on the river which ive seen pleeeenty -- YOU COULD BE BLUFFING! DONT WANNA FOLD THE WINNER!) If he three outs ya he three outs ya, it happens.

If he picked up some weird ass open ender on the turn and he runner runners ya, well, it sucks but it happens.

Are those REALLY what you're afraid of? Of course not, his most likely holding here is a J.

I Check.

The pot is too small to open yourself up to a checkraise, imho. Nothin' wrong with smallball.

Xanadu wrote: "I'd hate not to charge a 9, T, or A for his 3 or 4 outer."

I check raise here with A quite often. Now I've got folding equity against you because I'm 90% sure you don't have a J, AND I have 3 or 4 outs. Ruh roh!

Midas wrote: "I'd bet here, just so I don't miss bets when I'm ahead."
Ignoring the fact that when you're behind youre paying more than what you'd earn? Villains most likely moves here are raise or fold. Almost no one calls this turn unless he's picked up some weird ass backdoor straight draw -- which hey, good luck to him.

Ltrain wrote: If you think he has Ace High, most players will call the turn bet and re-evaluate on the river

I really don't see ace high calling here particularly often, though I guess it _could_, if your opponent was super weak and had the "4 bet pot, chasin my three outter! yeaaa!" mentality. I guess reads help.
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euphoricism
Old 04-28-2006, 08:33 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Mike: Call down cheaply? We get raised here and call down we've doubled the size of the pot while likely BEHIND?

If he c/raises here, threebet or fold man.. unless opponent is "special" -- but even those will check/fold the river when theyve seen their bluff fail.
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elipsesjeff
Old 04-28-2006, 08:41 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
If he c/raises here, threebet or fold man..
Why wouldn't this be the correct play?


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pokerfanatic
Old 04-28-2006, 08:43 PM #11 (permalink)  
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c/r doesn't AUTOMATICLY mean your behind depends on the player...

Obviously if the guy is a complete passive and wont c/r with anything other then the J it’s an easy obvious play to me but if the guy will do that with say 50% the J and 50% hands you win with now what?
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Pingviini
Old 04-28-2006, 08:48 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outphase
Bet to know if you're behind the J
and what if he CR's. fold? if you want the info you better act according to it.
and mike, yes, in NL this would be quite an easy check (for me at least).

I dont get that fold or 3-bet logic at all. if he caps then fold? I dont really know about the dynamics of those 5/10SH games so perhaps they might call me down with A high (well they do quite often) and definitely with any PP.

Sorry that I didnt mention this earlier but he had just sat down at the table so I had zero reads on the guy.
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euphoricism
Old 04-28-2006, 08:50 PM #13 (permalink)  
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You tell me, jeff.. I say fold, but I'll take a threebet over a call -- because the only reason to be calling is if you think he's bluffing. If you have a read, why not use it to its full extent?

Calling the turn raise and popping the river is a neat idea.. hmm..

Fanatic, I mentioned that in my post (i think) If I think he'll C/R with air, I'd prefer a threebet more than a call. I wouldn't make it the norm, though. The pot is only 3 bets going into the turn -- why bother? Fold to the CR.

FWIW, I'm checking through
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euphoricism
Old 04-28-2006, 08:51 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pingviini
Quote:
Originally Posted by outphase
Bet to know if you're behind the J
and what if he CR's. fold? if you want the info you better act according to it.
and mike, yes, in NL this would be quite an easy check (for me at least).

I dont get that fold or 3-bet logic at all. if he caps then fold? I dont really know about the dynamics of those 5/10SH games so perhaps they might call me down with A high (well they do quite often) and definitely with any PP.

Sorry that I didnt mention this earlier but he had just sat down at the table so I had zero reads on the guy.
In retrospect this is a pretty shitty idea. If he caps you now have odds to call one more bet to try and spike your two outter (I think.. Id have to run the pot-odds math...)
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euphoricism
Old 04-28-2006, 08:54 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Nope.

There are 3 bets going into the turn.

he checks, i put in 1bb, he raises it, so theres 6 total, 1 more for me to call.

6:1 is not the odds to chase your two outter.

I dont think I mind the threebet, fold to a cap, auto-check-behind-river.

DISCLAIMER: IF I DONT THINK HE HAS THE J. There, before someone jumps on me
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elipsesjeff
Old 04-28-2006, 08:59 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 if you 3 bet, he's folding a worse hand which you don't want to fold. Otherwise, plain call and if he bets into you on the river when he is behind then thats great.

On any hand where I am unsure of whether I am ahead or behind in a HU situation, I want to put no more or less than 3 BB in on the turn or river while also seeing a showdown. If he checkraises you, call him down, if he checks to you again on the river, then bet/call.

Do you three bet here with a hand like JTs?


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euphoricism
Old 04-28-2006, 09:06 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Yes, I'd threebet JTs. If he has a better J, well, sucks to be me. He's more likely to be c/r'n air.

But yes, anyway, I check through.
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elipsesjeff
Old 04-28-2006, 09:24 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 You're logic doesnt make any sense. If he check/raises you and have Jack with no kicker, you are just as likely behind and outkicked and behind than with an overpair. I will give you that by you having a jack it decreases the likelihood of your opponent having a jack.

But, why would you 3bet here but fold to a cap? You put in so much money in when you're behind, you get the least out of your opponent when your ahead. Even it out some and save yourself some variance..


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Ltrain
Old 04-28-2006, 10:00 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Ltrain wrote: If you think he has Ace High, most players will call the turn bet and re-evaluate on the river

I really don't see ace high calling here particularly often, though I guess it _could_, if your opponent was super weak and had the "4 bet pot, chasin my three outter! yeaaa!" mentality. I guess reads help.
I actually see it a lot at 3/6; maybe just a difference in stakes. Example, why wouldn't a passive player with Ace broadway call a turn bet here? HU, Board pairs, PFR range for most shorthand players is very wide, it is a reasonable assumption. If I had low pockets or perhaps A,K, maybe I check the turn to induce a river bet from an aggro player when I have some showdown value and don't want to get checkraised on the turn, but with K,K, you have enough power to calldown a checkraise and still win most of the time against lower pocket pairs or a lower pair (If he has a J or lucky two pair, so be it).
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Miffed22001
Old 04-30-2006, 12:31 AM #20 (permalink)  
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 easy flop bet
easy turn bet
if raised on turn im likely to call and then call a river bet too, perhaps raise depends.
My arguement would be that if opp has weaker hand and u 3 bet turn does he check/call the river anyway? Alternativly does the jack, 77 9t always cap giving hand away and not try to call and c/r river?
I like a turn bet, call c/r if it happens and call river rather than a 3 bet turn bcoz im not sure how many hands want to call the river with a weaker hand. If you opp is a donkey calling station then possibly 3 bet.
I like that line because a lot of aggros like me (and euph it seems) are gona c/r this turn with a monster range, all pps and any part of the flop, perhaps even ace high. 3 beting tells them what u have, making the river an easy fold imo for that range.
If your opp will call a 3bet turn AND river with less than KK 3 bet, if he wont then call a c/r on turn if it happens and call river.
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euphoricism
Old 04-30-2006, 07:45 PM #21 (permalink)  
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or we could just make it a really easy non-decision and check behind on the turn, calling a single bet on the river, and betting if there isn't one.
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Miffed22001
Old 04-30-2006, 08:07 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
or we could just make it a really easy non-decision and check behind on the turn, calling a single bet on the river, and betting if there isn't one.
with the best hand more often that not?
im more for spewing against a jack than checking.
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Xanadu
Old 04-30-2006, 09:05 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Aaaargh.

Unless I have a strong read on a player that will fold here without trips or better, I'm looking to get the most bets in the pot. Only if my opponent gives me a good reason for me to think I am beat here am I going to slow down. Sure, I don't play 5/10 much, but unless players there are tight passive wimps, having an overpair on a paired flop at a short table HU, I am pumping it.
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