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NWNewell
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06-02-2007, 03:36 PM
Post subject: TT with action up front - Raise or Call for Set Value?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL
Posts: 283
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Full Tilt 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Preflop: Hero is Button with T , T .
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero ?? Raise or Call ??
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I would 3bet this all day long. But I do play shorthanded and tend to play aggro.
I like taking the initiative. I like being able to take off a bad flop and peel a turn card. MP1 could just be loose-isolating the utg+1 limper.
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ana2809
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06-02-2007, 10:11 PM
Post subject: Just call
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#3 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3
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Just call from me. Raise from first positions AK , AA all big pairs and so on. One call from center position.
I would like to see flop. That set comes only once with nine deals . Flop with out A and i would re raise when he bets flop. Re raise from him after that would be big pair.
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NWNewell
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL
Posts: 283
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Interestingly... I want to 3-bet this too (and usually do).
Sklansky says to 3-b TT, but for the most part does not distinguish between playing a only the raiser, or against the raiser and callers. WTO(Yao) also says to 3-bet against the raiser. All of which I am in total agreement.
But WTO(Yao) also says to only call with a raise and callers (even from late position).
I kind of agree with you splenda, with the BTN, I want to have the initiative and take advantage of my position post flop.
But because of WTO(Yao), I wanted to to some more thinking about this (he says the same thing about JJ).
Out of position (blinds) I can see this and calling is usually my preferred choice (as we've recently discussed  ). But with position (especially the button), I lean towards 3-betting.
hhmmmmm......
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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i thought you would be asking yourself, "arent i only getting 3:1 to call here? so, do i want to 3bet and try to isolate here instead?"
calling cannot be correct (from this spot), from what we've agreed on. granted, you still have blinds to act, but no guarantees they will give you the odds you like.
can you give me a read on the table's tendencies? who is calling? who is raising? how accurate have your reads been thus far? etc, etc.
and do you have a specific read on the villain to make the 3betting decision easier?
i hate to say, "it depends." if opponent is tight-passive, i may not even play the hand here (marginal spot, to me). and if he's maniacal, i may play TT like AA, and see where this takes us. if i have a tight image, surely he will respect me if he is raising something marginal that misses flop.
and..its not like we are playing .10/.20
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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NWNewell
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL
Posts: 283
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No real read.
And well..... when calling, we are pretty sure that UTG is going to call. And with the odds BB is getting, he should usually call. So, we can predict our pot odds to call to be around 4:1. Not quit the 5:1 odds we talk about. However, TT/JJ is a high enough pocket pair that it doesn't necessarily need a set to hold up, and being in late position, I am in favorable shape for all the post flop play. So we are not totally dependent on a set for value.
So, calling can be correct.
I can see both sides of the argument. Just not sure which is correct.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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If you're going to call a raise, you need to be the 4th player in the pot with your PP. With the Pre-flop limper, and the BB yet to act. You've got pretty good odds that you'll be the 4th or even 5th player.
Calling is borderline correct.
A raise ummm. You would certainly help define what your opponent has. AK would only call, AA, KK, and QQ would all re-raise you. Allowing you to get away from the hand a lot more easily should you miss when things get hectic on the flop again.
I think both calling and raising are correct. As for which is more correct? No clue.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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I would 3-bet pf. This will help to define your hand. If anybody caps then we can assume they have AK or a bigger pair. Also i like to get isolated with the aggressor in this situation.
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NWNewell
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL
Posts: 283
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We are going to have a hard time getting isolated by the aggressor. There is a coldcaller in between. UTG is already in for one, he is definitely going to call 1 more bet and is very possible that he would call two before it even got back around to the aggressor. So, it is definitely going to be 3-way, maybe 4 way.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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We are not 3betting to define our range we are 3betting b/c we likely to hold the best equity in a 4 way pot PLUS we have position.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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3b.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NWNewell
We are going to have a hard time getting isolated by the aggressor. There is a coldcaller in between. UTG is already in for one, he is definitely going to call 1 more bet and is very possible that he would call two before it even got back around to the aggressor. So, it is definitely going to be 3-way, maybe 4 way.
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sorry i just quick read the op let me go back and read it again. None the less i would still 3bet but be very leary if somebody caps pf or an over card shows up on the flop. If we gat caped pf we are behind. If an over card shows up on the flop we are likely behind
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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seems like every book i read says, "when in a marginal spot where it seems both calling and betting are correct, we should err on the side of the bet. for, aggression wins more pots than calling."
when it is a tie, i think we should lean towards betting, especially when we have position.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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let's not forget the other reason for raising... if nobody caps, then they might all check to you and give you a free look at the turn if you catch a bad flop.
ChezJ
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