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Trying my hand at limit

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dalecooper

08-31-2005, 10:57 PM Post subject: Trying my hand at limit

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

I've never played much limit, except for a few SnG's I entered accidentally (won two of them, surprisingly). I am trying out some $3/$6 limit on Party today. Two hands of interest:

***** Hand History for Game 2630744832 *****
$3/$6 Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, August 31, 18:46:54 EDT 2005
Table Table 34462 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: AndNines ( $190 )
Seat 4: TexasHold111 ( $158 )
Seat 9: Greek1019 ( $262 )
Seat 10: CloseBorder ( $116.75 )
Seat 5: stressball10 ( $136 )
Seat 2: hooner1 ( $126 )
Seat 7: Jabert ( $146 )
Seat 3: kaoticazn819 ( $47 )
Seat 6: GhostXL ( $160.50 )
Seat 8: alcinjog ( $177 )
kaoticazn819 posts small blind [$1].
TexasHold111 is sitting out.
stressball10 posts big blind [$3].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ Qc Qh ]
GhostXL folds.
Jabert folds.
TexasHold111 has left the table.
alcinjog folds.
Greek1019 folds.
AndNines folds.
hooner1 folds.
kaoticazn819 calls [$2].
stressball10 raises [$3].
kaoticazn819 calls [$3].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ah, 8d, 6d ]
kaoticazn819 checks.
stressball10 bets [$3].
kaoticazn819 raises [$6].
stressball10 raises [$6].
kaoticazn819 raises [$6].
stressball10 calls [$3].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
kaoticazn819 checks.
stressball10 bets [$6].
kaoticazn819 calls [$6].
** Dealing River ** [ 7s ]
kaoticazn819 checks.
stressball10 checks.
kaoticazn819 shows [ Js, Kc ] high card ace.
stressball10 shows [ Qc, Qh ] a pair of queens.
stressball10 wins $46 from the main pot with a pair of queens.

Do you think this was optimal play for my hand? I felt like it was important to show maximum strength on the flop since it was probable the other player felt like I was stealing. His check on the turn was a good sign - I didn't think he'd bother check-raising after check-raising and then capping the flop. I felt like a bet there was probably a good idea, but when he called I started to fear a weak ace and figured to check behind on the river. Did I play this right? I suspected after the fact I maybe should have checked the turn, but then he would almost certainly bet the river with any hand which means I spend exactly as much money for a showdown.

***** Hand History for Game 2630755263 *****
$3/$6 Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, August 31, 18:48:57 EDT 2005
Table Table 34462 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: AndNines ( $200 )
Seat 9: Greek1019 ( $247 )
Seat 10: CloseBorder ( $116.75 )
Seat 5: stressball10 ( $155 )
Seat 2: hooner1 ( $126 )
Seat 3: kaoticazn819 ( $23 )
Seat 6: GhostXL ( $160.50 )
Seat 8: alcinjog ( $190 )
Seat 4: kgunlei ( $171.75 )
Seat 7: Elyse7 ( $150 )
Greek1019 posts small blind [$1].
AndNines posts big blind [$3].
Elyse7 posts big blind [$3].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ Ah Kc ]
hooner1 folds.
kaoticazn819 calls [$3].
kgunlei folds.
stressball10 raises [$6].
Elyse7 calls [$3].
alcinjog folds.
Greek1019 folds.
AndNines calls [$3].
kaoticazn819 calls [$3].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qd, Js, Ks ]
AndNines checks.
kaoticazn819 checks.
stressball10 checks.
Elyse7 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kd ]
AndNines bets [$6].
kaoticazn819 calls [$6].
stressball10 calls [$6].
Elyse7 folds.
** Dealing River ** [ Th ]
AndNines bets [$6].
kaoticazn819 folds.
stressball10 calls [$6].
AndNines shows [ Qc, Ad ] a straight, ten to ace.
stressball10 shows [ Ah, Kc ] a straight, ten to ace.
AndNines wins $26.25 from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.
stressball10 wins $26.25 from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.

A very curious hand. I don't know if I should have raised at any point here after the flop. What do you think? Considering that I flopped TPTK, that was about as bad a flop as I could have hoped for with so many callers.

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Fnord

08-31-2005, 11:11 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Move down to 2/4 full. Most 3/6 full games suck because short-handed games don't often grow into good full table games.

Hand 1: 3-betting the flop is really bad. Lots of players like to spray in these situations and I don't think spraying is beaten for the max by trying to spray even more. I might fold, but probably call down the flop c/r and bet if checked to.

Hand 2: You must bet that flop. This isn't NL where you need to be careful about betting and often have to fold to a raise. You're probably going to showdown here so maximize your chance to win by betting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

jmontis

08-31-2005, 11:19 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 1,296

hand 1 that's a hell of a river card, and a check is fine.

hand 2, have to bet the flop, maybe raise the river for value. You won't split it very often.

take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately

booradly07

08-31-2005, 11:25 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 120

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Most 3/6 full games suck because short-handed games don't often grow into good full table games.

Fnord, can you explain what you mean by this? I am trying but I don't get it.

thanks,

Brad

Fnord

08-31-2005, 11:28 PM

#5 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmontis

hand 1 that's a hell of a river card, and a check is fine.

I used to think that. Now I value bet boards like that when checked to and have come out well ahead. The great thing is that he has an EASY laydown to a river check/raise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmontis

hand 2, have to bet the flop, maybe raise the river for value. You won't split it very often.

Paired boards, lots of broadways cards... meh. His sucky play on prior streets and lack of reads gives him very little information to work with here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

08-31-2005, 11:32 PM

#6 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by booradly07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Most 3/6 full games suck because short-handed games don't often grow into good full table games.

Fnord, can you explain what you mean by this? I am trying but I don't get it.

I'm an action player who desposited $300 and want to GAMB00L (I do this weekly and never cash out, but have lots of fun when the table coaches yell at me.) 3/6 looks about right and I don't want to play with those full table nits or maybe even pick a table at random. Hence, I tend to find a 6 max table and it never fills up. That same donk will often land at a 2/4 table that will fill up and become a really good full table. Most GREAT full tables right now were probably short handed an hour or two ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

jmontis

08-31-2005, 11:48 PM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 1,296

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmontis

hand 1 that's a hell of a river card, and a check is fine.

I used to think that. Now I value bet boards like that when checked to and have come out well ahead. The great thing is that he has an EASY laydown to a river check/raise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmontis

hand 2, have to bet the flop, maybe raise the river for value. You won't split it very often.

Paired boards, lots of broadways cards... meh. His sucky play on prior streets and lack of reads gives him very little information to work with here.

yea i'm pretty aggressive with value bets at times, but if he didn't have the ace, he may have had a T... his flop cap kind of confuses the rest of the hand

take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately

dalecooper

09-01-2005, 02:47 AM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Thanks, Fnord. I was comfortable on most hands I played today but these two both felt wrong to me. I need to do some more reading on limit play before I head back (though I did make some money... but meh).

Your take on the second hand is interesting especially. Do you pretty much never worry about a check-raise in limit play, then? I guess that makes some sense, it's just hard for a no limit player to wrap his head around. At the time I was thinking with that many callers, it was pretty likely I was behind someone - surely one of the other three would have AT, KQ, KJ, QJ, JJ, maybe even QQ... all hands that were ahead of me. I felt uncomfortable "value betting" a hand I thought was behind. But that was all gut feeling, I have no idea what the actual odds are that I was ahead or behind. I guess with two checks ahead of me, a bet was a good idea. If there were two more bets fired in (say, a check-raise and a re-raise from players 1 and 2) would you hang around in the pot still, or let it go? At that point only four outs (the tens) could be considered clean.

On the first hand - you suggest to call the check-raise and then bet if checked to, but otherwise probably just call down? If there was a big bet on the turn and river, call both? I've been spending so much time in no limit cash games and (particularly) NL tourneys that I've gotten married to psychological gameplay. That is, trying to represent hands and outplay people through devious betting. I'd sort of forgotten that these concepts only sometimes apply to limit - although that's a lesson I learned very quickly in 7 stud, even with no real limit background.

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