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Damian
Old 10-04-2006, 09:53 AM     Post subject: Trip 2's #1 (permalink)  

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 24
Damian
A hand from last night's session.

Here's one to test you - Go to town fella's:
Are you playing this hand differently?
What do you think was the final outcome?
I'll post the results in a while.

Pacific Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
7 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is UTG with 2 2
Hero calls (1.48:1), 3 folds, Button calls (2.48:1), SB calls (3.48:0.5), BB checks.

Flop: 2 6 A (4SB, 4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls (5:1), Button folds, SB calls (6:1).

Turn: J (3.5BB, 3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls (8.5:1).

River: 9 (7.5BB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls (12.5:1).

Results:
Final pot: 11.5BB
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NWNewell
Old 10-04-2006, 10:53 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL
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NWNewell


Have you read SSHE yet? (yes, I'm a broken record)

Playing 22 UTG....

The only time SSHE advocates playing 22 from early position is if there are 6-8 players seeing the flop.

Now, while I agree with this.... Few tables constantly have 6-8 players seeing the flop. Even at loose tables it is typically more like 4-5 players. So, from early position it is typically wrong to assume that you are going to get 6+ players to the flop. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU START OUT WITH ONLY 7 PLAYERS. Plus, everyone else at the table as the opportunity to raise to reduce the number of players to the flop and cost you more to see the flop. Unless the table is continually loose (6+ limpers) and passive (very little pre-flop raising), this play is going to be a negative EV almost every time!

It is for these reasons that I rearly play looser starting hand requirements from early postision. I like to only play them form MP2 or beyond where I can get a better approximation of how many players will be playing (and that's less than half as many opportunities for the pot to be raised), and see how the hand is developing.

Sure, you hit your trips this time.... but that preflop call actually cost you money. Only 3 other players, giving you 3:1 odds to hit your 7.5:1 shot trips. It is tough to make up that much in implied odds (and when you do, your trips are probably not as much of a favorite as you think).

You were lucky that the pot was not raised. And with that few of opponents in the pot, you are going to need many players to call down or raise & re-raise with you in order to achive the required implied odds to make up for your -EV preflop call. And when that happens (people playing back at you or draw), this is often a sign that your lowest trips may not hold up. Luckily, there are not real strong draws on the board, but that also makes me think that BB either has two pair, or a higher trips (so you are way ahead or way, way behind). So, suddenly you're preflop required implied odds of ~7.5:1 is starting to look more like ~10:1 (or worse) to make up for the you hit your trip 2's and still loose.

See this post for some more info on Small Pocket Pairs
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-42932.htm

As far as the way the rest of the hand was played....

Flop is good. Have no problem smooth calling the flop with no strong draws on the board to try to get the two over calls.

The turn not as good. I would cap it. For two reasons. If he is on a draw and misses, he is probably going to check/fold the river and you will miss out on another bet (plus you would be ahead on the turn if he was on a draw and the cap would be for value). If he has a strong hand, like two pair or trips he is going to bet the river even if you cap. But he could easily bet the river with only top pair if you only called his turn 3-bet, and you would not really know what he has for sure and weither you should call or raise the river.

But when you cap the turn, and he bets out... you know he is very strong (I would put him on top two or higher trips) and I would probably only call his river bet. But if he checks the river after you capped it, I would bet and he will probably fold a busted draw, call top pair or two pair, probably 2-bet a set (which I would have to call at that point, the pot is too big to lay down for one more bet).

So, by capping the turn, you gain an extra bet when he misses his draw, you save an extra bet when you are behind, and you will probably also get a river call if he has top pair or two pair.

So, in most situations you will be getting extra bets or saving bets from the information you gain by capping this turn. The way you played it, you will get some extra bets when he gets out of hand with a pair of pushes two pair. But that occation will most likey be the minority, and I think capping this turn and playing the river based on your opponents actions will definitely earn you some extra EV.

Use the cap to your advantage. Only one more bet on the turn (since he can't re-raise you) will save you two bets on the river when you think you are behind.

Good luck, and FINISH SSHE!
My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.
 
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outphase
Old 10-04-2006, 01:20 PM #3 (permalink)  
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outphase
Terminology: you have a set not trips. set = pocket pair + board, trips = pair on board

Anywho, the only hand I believe he would have that he is ahead with is 66 as AA raises even in the BB. I don't see why you don't cap the turn but raise the river.
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bigspenda73
Old 10-04-2006, 01:29 PM #4 (permalink)  
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bigspenda73 will become famous soon enoughbigspenda73 will become famous soon enough
 If you don't look at the river, I actually like flat calling the turn 3bet. This keeps villain aggressive and makes sure you get atleast 2 bets out of him on the river. Knowing the river aggression now, you should have capped the turn, but you couldn't know that at the time. I cap the river however, as I put him on 2 pair here and not a set.
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NWNewell
Old 10-04-2006, 01:59 PM #5 (permalink)  
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NWNewell
At $0.25/$0.50 tables, a check from the BB with 66 and even AA would not surprize me. I think the check from the BB with 66 is actually the right move. And I can easily see someone from these limits trying to slow play AA preflop (and I would expect them to conitnue slowplaying with a SET ( ) of Aces on the flop, but who the heck knows with some of the players at these limits)

I still like gaining some info from the turn cap. what is it going to hurt instead of raising the river?

If you have his TopPair or TwoPair beat, you are probably getting two bets either way:
One more on the turn cap; or one more when BB checks, you bet, BB calls.

He could 3-bet the river with TopTwoPair when you the later of the two. Not always. But he almost always will 3-bet with a larger set.

I don't know... I was thinking that the real value in this turn/river play comes from avoiding being 3-bet on the river when you are behind. w(hich I think you can help find out by capping the turn).

But I'm not really sure.....
My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.
 
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Damian
Old 10-05-2006, 07:54 AM #6 (permalink)  

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 24
Damian
Thanks for the points everyone.
Newell - still awaiting an ordered SSHE

Well here you go, The results were as follows:

Hero - final hand - Three 2's
Big Blind - Final Hand - Three J's.

He didnt raise from the BB with pocket jacks! Dangerous play. I didnt put him on Jacks for a second. I put him on A6s - two pair.
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