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Transitioning from NL

  
 
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sven00100
Old 05-27-2010, 04:19 PM     Post subject: Transitioning from NL #1 (permalink)  
3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 84
sven00100
Hello Limiters;

I am mainly a NL player, and have been for the last 3 years, but I was wondering; I have been looking to find a foundation for starting a limit poker game (rather than just diving in, though I have for a few short sessions), and I was struggling to understand the concepts behind all of the starting hand decisions. I understand High card play better short handed, and drawing hands play better multi-way; this is super basic however.. But I was more curious about positional play.

I went through some of the digest articles here and as there is little explanation (probably very simple) of some of the decisions, I decided to google a chart.

Texas Holdem Starting Hand Guide – Learn About the Best Texas Hold'em Starting Hands and Improve Your Game

Obviously this changes as you move to 6 person tables ( I tend to prefer 6 person tables on NL, as I feel the more hands that become playable, the more I can exploit my edge; however, since I have no edge at limit, other than being able to do rough stats fairly quickly in my head, I feel I should start at full ring ) but what I was wondering is:

A. Is this a reasonable limit starting hand 'guide' - I don't mean to say that this should be stuck to strictly.. poker is an intellectual game, obviously based on opponent looseness, aggression, blah blah... but if I followed this 'reasonably' to start with, and tried to analyze how their pre-made decisions make sense, or don't, would it give me some sort of foundation?

B. Is there a better place for me to start? I could play simply from a logical standpoint and run calcs on a ton of scenarios to get a feel for what is better play; this probably would take me a day to get at least comfortable at micros... but I'd also probably come to some false conclusions especially about bluffing, and calling down...

Thanks everyone for dealing with my noobness!
Regards,
Sven00100
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KoRnholio
Old 05-27-2010, 04:52 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I found that chart a little confusing. Seems to be fairly solid to start out with though.

Generally your bread and butter money making hands are going to be top pair+good kicker type hands. Trouble hands in NL (KQ, KJ, QJ, etc) become profitable because the implied odds on drawing hands are reduced so drastically reduced by the betting limits. Still, you have to be selective preflop, and don't want to get into the trouble hands until middle position rolls around. Against a tight player's raise, just fold them.

You'll also have to play a lot more hands out of the blinds, because of the odds you are getting on a call. This is the biggest spot where player tendencies and psychology come into play. Preflop play in the other positions is a lot more straight forward.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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sven00100
Old 05-27-2010, 04:57 PM #3 (permalink)  
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sven00100
Here are some hands from my first session, not paying a TON of attention to the guide.. All the full ring had like 4 people waiting lists, so i chose this.


----------------------------Hand1-----------------------------
Full Tilt Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A
3 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls

Flop: (6 SB) 8, 9, 9 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls

Turn: (4.5 BB) 9 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls

River: (7.5 BB) A (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, 1 fold, Hero calls

Total pot: $1.15 (11.5 BB) | Rake: $0.05

----------------------------Hand2-----------------------------
Full Tilt Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is MP with 6, 7
UTG raises, Hero calls, 2 folds, BB calls

Flop: (6.4 SB) 5, 5, 7 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, 1 fold

Turn: (4.2 BB) 6 (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls

River: (6.2 BB) 5 (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls

Total pot: $0.82 (8.2 BB) | Rake: $0.04

----------------------------Hand3-----------------------------
Full Tilt Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, 8
4 folds, Hero raises, BB calls

Flop: (4 SB) 3, 7, 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3 BB) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks

River: (3 BB) K (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero folds

Total pot: $0.30 (3 BB) | Rake: $0.01

----------------------------Hand4-----------------------------
Full Tilt Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, 9
BB calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, SB checks

Flop: (3.4 SB) 8, 3, 10 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (1.7 BB) J (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, 1 fold

River: (3.7 BB) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $0.37 (3.7 BB) | Rake: $0.01

----------------------------Hand5-----------------------------
Full Tilt Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, A
1 fold, Hero raises, CO calls, 3 folds

Flop: (5.4 SB) 3, A, 2 (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls

Turn: (3.7 BB) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls

River: (5.7 BB) Q (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls

Total pot: $0.77 (7.7 BB) | Rake: $0.03

----------------------------Hand6-----------------------------
(NO!! Here I am not being results oriented, Always fold IMO I was posting this more as a question - at what point do we start calling in this situation 5c into will be 30c pot 3H...)

Full Tilt Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, J
3 folds, Button raises, SB calls, 1 fold

Flop: (5 SB) 2, 6, 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Button bets, SB calls

Turn: (3.5 BB) 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Button bets, SB calls

River: (5.5 BB) 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Button bets, SB calls

Total pot: $0.75 (7.5 BB) | Rake: $0.03

----------------------------Hand7-----------------------------
Full Tilt Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, 6
2 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold

Flop: (5 SB) 8, 8, 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls

Turn: (3.5 BB) J (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River: (3.5 BB) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls

Total pot: $0.55 (5.5 BB) | Rake: $0.02
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sven00100
Old 05-27-2010, 04:59 PM #4 (permalink)  
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sven00100
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoRnholio View Post
I found that chart a little confusing. Seems to be fairly solid to start out with though.

Generally your bread and butter money making hands are going to be top pair+good kicker type hands. Trouble hands in NL (KQ, KJ, QJ, etc) become profitable because the implied odds on drawing hands are reduced so drastically reduced by the betting limits. Still, you have to be selective preflop, and don't want to get into the trouble hands until middle position rolls around. Against a tight player's raise, just fold them.

You'll also have to play a lot more hands out of the blinds, because of the odds you are getting on a call. This is the biggest spot where player tendencies and psychology come into play. Preflop play in the other positions is a lot more straight forward.
Yeah, they didn't really have to shorten everything. More confusing IMO but after about 2 mins I got it. Lots of condensed information. Thanks for your input!
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KoRnholio
Old 05-27-2010, 11:31 PM #5 (permalink)  
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1- looks good with no read. I really want to raise, but he may just call with an ace/worse boat, but cap quads. So we'd essentially be laying him 2-1 by reopening the betting.

2- I don't like the cold call, especially against an UTG raiser. As played call down is fine, though I might pop the flop to give bad odds to BB's likely overcards. Might make us able to save half a bet against an overpair if he goes for the call/check raise turn.

3- cbet the flop. as played I probably wtfcall the river since he is really only repping Kh, he'd have bet a flush, Q or 9 on the turn.

4- HH looks garbled a bit. Looks like you limped from UTG+1 after UTG limped? I'd raise to isolate him with very likely the best hand. As played a call on the turn is fine, try to bring along the 3rd player with your nut draw.

5- easy game These are the bread and butter hands where you catch the guy calling down light or with Ace-rag. He won't hit his kicker very often, and when he does, you only ever lose 1 extra BB.

6- J5o is a fold there for sure. I'd rather (and often would) call with 65o

7- Flopped trips I mix it up. I usually take the check-call/CR line, but on a board that dry, he pretty much knows you have 8x, 4x or a pp below 99. So we're hoping he hit that jack or has an overpair, which will still bet nearly always on the turn and show it down even after getting check-raised. If you have a read the guy won't fold AQ/AK (ie, always shows it down), then I'd rather check-raise the flop or donk bet the turn.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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sven00100
Old 05-27-2010, 11:48 PM #6 (permalink)  
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sven00100
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoRnholio View Post
1- looks good with no read. I really want to raise, but he may just call with an ace/worse boat, but cap quads. So we'd essentially be laying him 2-1 by reopening the betting.

2- I don't like the cold call, especially against an UTG raiser. As played call down is fine, though I might pop the flop to give bad odds to BB's likely overcards. Might make us able to save half a bet against an overpair if he goes for the call/check raise turn.

3- cbet the flop. as played I probably wtfcall the river since he is really only repping Kh, he'd have bet a flush, Q or 9 on the turn.

4- HH looks garbled a bit. Looks like you limped from UTG+1 after UTG limped? I'd raise to isolate him with very likely the best hand. As played a call on the turn is fine, try to bring along the 3rd player with your nut draw.

5- easy game These are the bread and butter hands where you catch the guy calling down light or with Ace-rag. He won't hit his kicker very often, and when he does, you only ever lose 1 extra BB.

6- J5o is a fold there for sure. I'd rather (and often would) call with 65o

7- Flopped trips I mix it up. I usually take the check-call/CR line, but on a board that dry, he pretty much knows you have 8x, 4x or a pp below 99. So we're hoping he hit that jack or has an overpair, which will still bet nearly always on the turn and show it down even after getting check-raised. If you have a read the guy won't fold AQ/AK (ie, always shows it down), then I'd rather check-raise the flop or donk bet the turn.
Thanks man, I got a bit out of the 88 hand (number 3) and I completely forgot about isolation (number 4); 7 I think my line was bad in general.. he is spazzing top pair (omitted any reads) and calling most any pair or ace high. Best type of player we like @ the table *gobble gobble* but thank you!
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LawDude
Old 05-29-2010, 08:08 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Posts: 940
LawDude
This is a grunch.

1. I guess I call the river here (because usually that raise is quads), but there's a pang in my stomach because there's only one card in the entire deck that beats us (indeed, we even beat the other ace).

2. Don't cold-call this pf without a read that you are going to get more people into the pot.
As played, raise the flop. You are ahead of everything except pairs and unlikely trips.
Since you didn't raise the flop, I don't mind the calldown.

3. Pf fine.
Lead out on the flop. You have initiative and maybe some fold equity as well. Plus, you don't want this to be checked through giving a free card.
As played, check-raise the flop. This is actually a great flop for 8's.
Bet the turn. queen isn't the worst scare card in the world. An ace would be much worse.
Bet-fold the river.

I think you massively fouled this hand up.

4. Raise or fold this pre-flop. No open-limping.
Bet the flop. You're in position, you probably have the best hand, you may get everyone to fold, and you have backdoor draws and can take a free card on the next street if you are called.
As played, semi-bluff raise the turn. You picked up a huge draw and your ace outs are probably good too. Since the flop was checked around, BB may be trying to buy the pot here.
As played, a river bluff would not be terrible, but that's totally optional.

5. nh all streets

6. I never play J5 offsuit from the big blind in a raised pot. Wait for better opportunities.

7. Dry board would make slowplay OK in position, but you are out of position. You missed bets by not check raising this and leading out on the turn.
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