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TP on flop, possibly dominated
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spoonitnow
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11-22-2006, 10:14 PM
Post subject: TP on flop, possibly dominated
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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5-handed, Hero is CO
Hero is dealt A J
1 fold, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold
Flop: 8 A 3
SB checks, Hero bets...
I don't have a read on the Button here, and I'm trying to figure out if a check/call is better here.
I'd put the Button's preflop 3-bet range at ROUGHLY something like JJ+, AQ+, since I don't have any reads. For KK/QQ/JJ I'm way ahead, for AA (unlikely) I'm screwed, and for AK/AQ (somewhat unlikely) I'm screwed. Sooo... I throw it to PokerStove, and on the flop against JJ+,AQs+,AQo+ I'm 51%.
So for shits and giggles, let's say I'm about even on average against the Button. If I bet, it seems like he's going to fold KK-JJ most of the time, especially with the SB still to act behind, and with AK/AQ he'll probably raise, getting me in for two small bets on the flop with a dominated top pair.
So if I do check, the Button will bet with AK/AQ, but he might also bet with KK-JJ, trying to avoid giving a flush draw a free card, so I think I should call the bet (if SB doesn't raise).
There's both big bet streets to go, and a lot could happen, so I'm not really sure how to plan for future streets unless I'm just going to call it down the whole way.
Please help the fish? 
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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From that short HU session I played with you I think that you donk too much.
If Button raised the flop what was your plan?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Well, if you think you have the best hand, taking the c/r line will do nothing to protect it. If you donk, you allow the button to protect your hand by raising you here. This would most likely fold out the SB, or if the SB calls you can instantly put them on the FD. I like donking to see where I am at. If the button raises I call and peel a turn card, and I most likely call down. The button 3bet in a 5handed game does not necessarily mean absolute strength. I would put the range at AT+, 88-AA, KJ/KQ/QJs. I think you are ahead on this flop more often than not. I think the more interesting play is what happens on the turn here.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by midas06
From that short HU session I played with you I think that you donk too much.
If Button raised the flop what was your plan?
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At the time the plan was to call and check/fold the turn unimproved (to a raise on the flop) but I know that's shitty. Another reason I think check/call is better on flop.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Well, if you think you have the best hand, taking the c/r line will do nothing to protect it. If you donk, you allow the button to protect your hand by raising you here. This would most likely fold out the SB, or if the SB calls you can instantly put them on the FD. I like donking to see where I am at. If the button raises I call and peel a turn card, and I most likely call down. The button 3bet in a 5handed game does not necessarily mean absolute strength. I would put the range at AT+, 88-AA, KJ/KQ/QJs. I think you are ahead on this flop more often than not. I think the more interesting play is what happens on the turn here. |
We're in for 9 small bets before flop betting starts, so there's nothing I can do to protect against a flush draw, not even if I donk and the button raises. The flush draw isn't my worry right now. Keep this in mind also: if I bet, the only hands that the button will raise with have me beat, except MAYBE AT.
On a side note, donking out will sometimes let you "see where you are at", but sometimes that information you get isn't worth the price you have to pay to get it.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Darn the SB in this hand, really makes it interesting. I cannot for the life of me think of a good line here. Im thinking of just calling the flop and folding the turn UI, unless the SB folds then I might call down. TPGK is pretty strong 5handed, even w/ the buttons 3bet PF. The problem here is you will always lose more when you lose than you will win when you win (god it's late I hope that makes sense).
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Just had one of those moments where I looked back at how my thought process about limit holdem and poker in general has progressed, I might write about the specifics in a later post, but it sort of comes down to seeing what's important in a situation, and what "theme" you see when you first look at a hand. For example, some people will see the idea of protecting your hand simply because you have TP against a possible flush draw and run with it. Just noticing how that happens in a lot of poker situations, and you can tell somewhat where someone is in their progression as a player by what they "see" and think about when analyzing a situation.
Or maybe I'm just rambling at 2:15 AM and making no sense. *shrug*
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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This is a hand you will take to showdown almost every time, so try to eliminate one of the two players on the flop. If button is aggro, I like the bet, trying to get button to raise and force out the SB. Then check/calldown or bet the river if button checks. Worst scenario is button raising and SB 3bet, or a check, button raise and SB checkraise. Then you have to determine at that point if you are ahead or not. With that flop, your reads on the players is vital since the pot is growing close to a calldown, the board is not a draw heavy board, and it will cost you 2 1/2 more BB to get to showdown. However, 5 handed I would have a really hard time folding this.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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Sand
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11-27-2006, 03:38 PM
Post subject: Re: TP on flop, possibly dominated
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#9 (permalink)
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
I'd put the Button's preflop 3-bet range at ROUGHLY something like JJ+, AQ+, since I don't have any reads. For KK/QQ/JJ I'm way ahead, for AA (unlikely) I'm screwed, and for AK/AQ (somewhat unlikely) I'm screwed. Sooo... I throw it to PokerStove, and on the flop against JJ+,AQs+,AQo+ I'm 51%.
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I think is a very conservative set of assumptions here. You raised from CO, not UTG. If you were against me, my 3 bet range would be 66+, A9s+, KTs+. I readless 3-bet here I would put more at 88+, ATs+, KJs+.
This is an interesting flop. You are WA/WB and the only draw out there is a flush draw. Essentially there isn't any hand you can force out with a flop donk. Any flush draw is in for the long term and I doubt any A is folding, whether it is better than yours or not. The flop bet is not the best play here.
Given that you can't protect your hand and that you very likely have the best hand at the moment, I would C/R the flop (trapping SB for a bet or two more, hopefully) and lead the turn.
Since you like PokerStove, that is a 70% equity against Button. No telling what SB has, but assuming he is as loose as that cold call, you probably still have a 55-60% equity on the flop.
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