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kyc12
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09-12-2006, 03:36 PM
Post subject: Top trips against turn raise
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 89
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the limper is a typical fish I think, and SB is 18.4/10
I have AKs from the BB. Two limpers including SB, I rasie they call.
Flop (6 SB) came KK9 rainbow. I bet, two callers.
Turn (4.5BB) is a 10. I bet, one caller, SB raise, ????
Remember the other limper that will most likely call if I just call if called, although I have no freaking idea what he has to call the flop and turn bet.
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seoul_child1
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 176
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this a bit leaky: but from what i gathered u have to raise here for info. and if u get pushed on *be mentally happy and fold. i would say ur up against a nit who chased a gut and the other K,10 but i wish u provided mor info. like positioning, Stacks, and how much u PFR!!! all that is needed for a more definative answer. But hope that helped
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by seoul_child1
this a bit leaky: but from what i gathered u have to raise here for info. and if u get pushed on *be mentally happy and fold. i would say ur up against a nit who chased a gut and the other K,10 but i wish u provided mor info. like positioning, Stacks, and how much u PFR!!! all that is needed for a more definative answer. But hope that helped
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No way I'm folding here. There is a much more likely chance that villain has a K here lower kicker than that gutshot, and I 3bet the heck out of it. Even if he has the straight, he's not going to reraise you in fear of a boat, but a boat will. If you get capped, I check/call a non-improving river card.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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This raising for information on the turn concept is a huge huge mega-huge error. So you are going to 3-bet and fold to a cap, or call the cap then fold the river unimproved and be happy about it? It costs you 2 bets to 3-bet and fold with no chance of winning. It costs you 2 bets to call down. Of course you certainly can't fold to a cap on the turn because there will be at least 13.5 bets in the pot and you have 5 outs to a boat. Can you fold the river if you call a cap on the turn? Hell no. Now there will be at least 15.5 bets in the pot and it is just as reasonable that opponent was slow-playing KQ or KJ on the flop and you have him beat as him having QJ for the straight.
Raising for information is a concept a lot of people get wrong. It is only for the flop because if you are going to use it on the turn, you could have just shown down the hand for the same cost. The raise for information play is from what I've seen, mostly advocated by old-school pro-nits who use it in tough high stakes games against good players. If you try this much at low stakes, you are going to run into enough gamboolers that just like to cap it when someone 3-bets them regardless of whether they have a real monster or not that you are going to lose money with it. It should only be tried against strong conservative players that you have such a strong read that you are 90% sure you are hopelessly behind when they cap a flop. The hopelessly behind bit is crucial too. It's not enough to be behind, you have to be close to drawing dead because the pot odds are always high when you try an information raise play.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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10 outs here to a boat or better here on the turn if behind to a straight
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
10 outs here to a boat or better here on the turn if behind to a straight
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Damn, how'd I miss all those outs. I know better than that.
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kyc12
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 89
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Okay my next question: How would evaluate the chance of villian having a boat or better vs a striaght vs trips?
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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The earlier post was assuming no-limit, but this is a limit question.
To answer your follow up question, you need to have a read on your villian and his range. Does he checkraise with air? Does he checkraise only with a monster? How likely is SB to have K,9, K,10 or Q,J?
I agree with Jeff you 3 bet this though. You are most likely ahead, have good draws to the boat if you are behind (with big implied odds if you hit because you can likely cap the river against a lower boat or straight), and can likely fold out the player behind you to get this HU on the river (I would rather fold him out here than bring him along because of gutshot possibilities). If SB caps you and you don't improve, call the river.
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