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Top pair, top kicker but yet...

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jwsisliving1

07-07-2005, 07:48 AM Post subject: Top pair, top kicker but yet...

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 6

Hello, I'm new to the site. Been playing poker pretty seriously for a few months. I've done pretty well so far in the tournaments and sitngo's I've entered. I've gotten a few compliments on my reads of opponents, but yet this an example where I'm real perplexed about how I wasn't able to put my opponents on the rights cards.

PokerStars Game #2049893898: Hold'em Limit (200/400) - 2005/07/07 - 03:12:08 (ET)
Table 'Alkmene' (Play Money) Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: habib_14 (6800 in chips)
Seat 2: TeamCoast (12412 in chips)
Seat 4: LuckyJones19 (2395 in chips)
Seat 5: jwsisliving1 (166219 in chips)
Seat 6: acesa&8s (6010 in chips)
Seat 7: ssgtp (13000 in chips)
Seat 8: Overi (29481 in chips)
TeamCoast: posts small blind 100
LuckyJones19: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jwsisliving1 [Kc Ah]
jwsisliving1: raises 200 to 400
acesa&8s: raises 200 to 600
ssgtp: folds
Overi: folds
habib_14: calls 600
TeamCoast: folds
LuckyJones19: folds
jwsisliving1: raises 200 to 800
Betting is capped
acesa&8s: calls 200
habib_14: calls 200
*** FLOP *** [Ad 9c 4c]
jwsisliving1: bets 200
acesa&8s: raises 200 to 400
habib_14: calls 400
jwsisliving1: raises 200 to 600
acesa&8s: raises 200 to 800
Betting is capped
habib_14: calls 400
jwsisliving1: calls 200
*** TURN *** [Ad 9c 4c] [7s]
jwsisliving1: bets 400
acesa&8s: raises 400 to 800
habib_14: raises 400 to 1200
jwsisliving1: raises 400 to 1600
Betting is capped
acesa&8s: calls 800
habib_14: calls 400
*** RIVER *** [Ad 9c 4c 7s] [5c]
jwsisliving1: bets 400
acesa&8s: calls 400
habib_14: calls 400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jwsisliving1: shows [Kc Ah] (a pair of Aces)
acesa&8s: mucks hand
habib_14: shows [As 7c] (two pair, Aces and Sevens)
habib_14 collected 11100 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 11100 | Rake 0
Board [Ad 9c 4c 7s 5c]
Seat 1: habib_14 (button) showed [As 7c] and won (11100) with two pair, Aces and Sevens
Seat 2: TeamCoast (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: LuckyJones19 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: jwsisliving1 showed [Kc Ah] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 6: acesa&8s mucked [Ks Jc]
Seat 7: ssgtp folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Overi folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I didn't put any of them on flush draws, not with the insane betting that was going on. I put them all on overcards. If this was a real game (especially nolimit) with real money at stake, what business would they have calling all the huge bets hoping for their flush to come on the turn or river.

So, how the hell do I put somebody on two pair in this situation? In real life you get to see their facial expressions, how they react to the cards, if they're shaking real bad, etc etc. But this is online limit poker, limit poker with play money no less. Yeah, I know people say betting patterns, but really there's not that much to betting patterns in limit. Slow play, check raise, jam the pot, and that's about it. This hand in particular was just an orgasm of overbetting. I'm on top pair, with top kicker, and it doesn't look like anything on the board beats me, except for a flush draw that shouldn't have even made it to the river.

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euphoricism

07-07-2005, 05:50 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

You said it all:
Play Money.

You simply can't do it.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

A'aag

07-07-2005, 09:50 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Loyal son of Rochester

Posts: 172

In play money games reading opponents is easy- they all have two random cards. Seriously, you have to shut it down on the turn here against most opponents. I usually call this down. More importantly, if you know how to play and you're comfortable with the interface, you have to play for real money or you might stop liking poker.

jwsisliving1

07-07-2005, 10:35 PM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 6

Would you call that a bad beat? I think it qualifies.

By the way what do you mean by "Play Money.

You simply can't do it."

euphoricism

07-08-2005, 12:22 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

You simply can't put your opponent on any hand. Its play money, and they will raise, reraise, and cap anything.

Find $20 in the couch and play .01/.02 you will learn more.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

thenonsequitur

07-08-2005, 04:58 AM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Location: Location

Posts: 637

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Find $20 in the couch and play .01/.02 you will learn more.

I can't agree more with this sentiment.

A) There is more money in your couch than you think.
B) Poker at ANY real money limit is hundreds of times more fun, as you can actually play poker, rather than just participating in a crapshoot with cards.

thenonsequitur

07-08-2005, 05:31 AM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Location: Location

Posts: 637

Oh, and to actually answer your question. If this weren't play money (where you could be up against really anything), there are a number of reasonable things your opponents could have when the action doesn't slow down on the turn. These are made even more likely by the game only being 8-handed, where people are generally more aggressive with more marginal holdings as compared to a full game.

Firstly, don't discount the possibility of a set. habib_14 could have a set of 9's. 99 is a hand some people will put 3 or 4 bets into preflop. The follow-up action for 99 makes sense (slowplayed trips on the flop and picked up agression for the turn).

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwsisliving1

I didn't put any of them on flush draws, not with the insane betting that was going on. I put them all on overcards.

Overcards with an A on board? I'm not even sure what you mean by that. If you mean something like KQo, those aren't exactly overcards (even if they did hit a K or Q, with this much action they'd still probably be losing to someone with at least a pair of aces). If by overcards you mean A+high kicker, it clearly can't be the case that they all have that, because the board has an A, you have an A, and you are up against three other people with only two aces left in the deck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwsisliving1

If this was a real game (especially nolimit) with real money at stake, what business would they have calling all the huge bets hoping for their flush to come on the turn or river.

acesa&8s could have had something like AQc or AJc--preflop raise with a suited A+face and then pumping the nut flush draw. With a pair of Aces, good kicker, and nut flush draw, this is the right move.

Even with no pair at all, pumping the nut flush draw with many people in the pot can often be correct (and can be correct even if you speculate that someone else in the hand has 2 cards of the suit your are looking for--you will hit less often but will often be payed off nicely when you do hit). I recommend doing the odds calculation for this.

Also, any one of them could have had A+high kicker (even another AK), and in fact, with this much action, I would expect one of them to. In this case you tie or win against those people. But chances are not all of them have this. A number of hands could have you beat. When the betting doesn't slow down on the turn (and in fact picks up), I'd probably give someone credit for having something better than TPTK, and go into call-down mode (and possibly fold the river if the betting doesn't slow down).

jwsisliving1

07-08-2005, 06:35 PM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 6

Yeah, your right they could've had a set, like a set of 9s, but really how in the heck would I know that. I don't usually go into a pot thinking someone has a pocket pair (unless it's obvious or becomes obvious). I mean how often do people get pocket pairs, and then actually draw the set. I know it happens, but I've mucked many pocket pairs before I've made a set. I've seen a few stupid players actually push their pocket pair to the river, even though it's clear their beaten from the flop on. And I was right about one of the guys having king jack, I consider really anything from jack to ace to be an overcard. That may be wrong though. The other two players folded on the river, so who knows what they had, probably pretty close to what that poor sap had.

I do play real money also. In the three months since I've started, I've won more than a few sitNgo's, usually I play anywhere from 20$ buy-in all the way up to $50. I also won $1100 in like two days from sitNgo's but also from playing some $200 and even $400 nolimit at empire poker. I will usually enter play money tournaments and rings games only at Poker Stars, I think the caliber of player there is just on average higher even at play money, and I also enjoy some of the 500bbp, 1000bbp, and WSOP Warm Up Round 1 tournaments on the Poker Pages/Bugsy Poker software. Most of those tournaments start at anywhere from 600 all the way up to 900 people. I don't play too many, but I regularly finish in the top third and sometimes will finish in the top 40 or top 20. Doesn't sound like much, but believe me Poker Pages actually has some pretty good players to go along with the normal amount of fish. Along with play money games, it's not worth much, but if you don't feel like playing any money or you don't have any, it's good practice and it's good to keep your game fresh.

Gatorcon

07-12-2005, 01:20 AM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwsisliving1

I do play real money also. In the three months since I've started, I've won more than a few sitNgo's, usually I play anywhere from 20$ buy-in all the way up to $50. I also won $1100 in like two days from sitNgo's but also from playing some $200 and even $400 nolimit at

I've never known anyone who has moved to "real poker" and been profitable to go back to "play poker" not even for goofing around.

Expecially if you have got the bankroll for 200/400. So what really gives with the play poker?

poskid_1982

07-12-2005, 01:46 AM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Midwest

Posts: 392

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatorcon

I've never known anyone who has moved to "real poker" and been profitable to go back to "play poker" not even for goofing around.

Expecially if you have got the bankroll for 200/400. So what really gives with the play poker?

Don't be soo sure!!! I goof around in play money all the time.

I do it for 2 reasons. When I'm on a terrible -ve swing or when I just feel like firing up another table but don't wanna risk cash.

Play money can be fun...Lots of lively conversation.

Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.

Gatorcon

07-12-2005, 02:02 AM

#11 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 30

I guess your right it just seems like you would develop bad habits or get an unrealistic perception of how your play is developing in "play poker"

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