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Chopper

09-29-2008, 05:50 PM Post subject: too thin?

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

where is the line between thin value and spew?

thin value or bluffy? 2 of these villains were calling down light and the other was aggro. and, i thought about a semibluff on turn. spewy, too?

0.5/1 Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($16.50)
UTG+1 ($49.20)
CO ($17.75)
BTN ($27.35)
Hero ($22.85)
BB ($19.55)

Pre-flop: (1.5 SB, 6 players) Hero is SB

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB checks

Flop:

(4.0 SB, 4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks

Turn:

(2.0 BB, 4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks

River:

(2.0 BB, 4 players)
Hero bets,

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bigspenda73

09-29-2008, 06:04 PM

#2 (permalink)

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fine

asdpikas

09-29-2008, 07:41 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

it's ok, i tend to semi the turn, but oop against 3 villains it's marginal.
this river, if they are passive, you can bet, but expect to win only 50% or so since one of them could have a T or KJ
I dont think, with those reads, that this is a losing play. break even at worst

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For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
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dsaxton

09-30-2008, 02:25 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 2,667

Semi-bluffing the turn is actually not that marginal, and seems pretty standard. The idea is that you're planning on calling a bet anyways if you check, so you should simply bet the hand yourself to gain the added fold equity as long as you're unlikely to get raised. An argument against betting is that an opponent may call with a better hand that would've checked behind, but this is a negligible risk.

Chopper

09-30-2008, 04:05 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

but, doesnt it depend on where a bet comes from on this turn? the pot is small and we wont have near the odds if a player to our right bets, especially since we wont be closing the action.

is it standard to semibluff at a 2BB pot with 3 players still to act? i know we are betting our 6-8 outs, but with one card to come and two passives in the hand, do we really have any FE to show profit?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

DrivingDog

09-30-2008, 06:24 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: UK

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I wouldn't semi-bluff the turn against three opponents myself. The pot's small and getting raised (although it seems unlikely) would really suck. Also at .5/1 guys are going to be calling a bet with all kinds of crap that is nonetheless ahead of us here like K9, bottom pair, etc..

If you do semibluff the turn you have to be prepared to fire the river regardless.

As played, I like the bet on the river.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

asdpikas

09-30-2008, 10:47 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Part of semibluffing is the value you get from the initiative and the folding equity on the river. But also, as you say, it would be incorrect to call a bet getting poor odds on such a small pot if someone bets, all fold, and it's one bet to you. But at that point, your hand is too good to fold (tough spot having at least 11 outs).
As said by saxton, better to fire yourself than to c/call if ur gonna put the bet in anyway. Plus now u are the one giving poor odds to hands like 7h6h.
These passives wont fold much on the turn if they got anything. But we should remember that the turn semibluff here will most of the time just increase our folding equity for the river, not win the pot right there. So you may get called on one spot by bottom pair and then take it down on the river even when UI, when you fire again, and they reconsider.
So when firing the turn, if called by just one villain, we have to fire river 100%. If more call, we will let go river UI.
Firing the turn has the benefit of getting many better hands to fold (Ahi, Khi, 44...) and giving us an extra way to win.
So, if we fire turn and get called by 1villain, it's a good spot to fire river. If we get called by more than 1, then the effective odds on our draw are closer to what we need and we can play to hit.
The worst of the worst would be to get raised, but since they are passive, that wont happen most of the time.

Still, i've played at these stakes a fair amount of hands and using the semibluff in this spot is nowhere near as good as with better players (higher stakes? same stakes but tag players?). I call it marginal, but not bad. IMO it would show a small profit in the long run as long as we dont try to bluff more than 1 villain on river (if called by more on turn WE HAVE TO GIVE UP ON RIVER UI). This is what gets many ppl in trouble.

Chopper

09-30-2008, 01:57 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Location: St. Louis, MO

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Quote:

Originally Posted by asdpikas

i give myself fewer outs since there are two hearts up and i only have a Q overcard (surely its tainted, too)

this is why i asked if it was spew to semibluff this turn. i dont know if its a factor of the stakes, or if its ME being results-oriented....but, past few months it feels like i'm getting called all day by these players here. i, then get forced to fire the river with what amounts to a bluff with Qhi, and that sucks....feels like spew. the easy part is realizing you MUST follow through on a semibluff, most times, if you want the pot because you have to sell what you advertised.

i used to have the problem of what i put in bold. i can see that approach on the river for sure, but...i used to fire at a pot, to build it, when i had a strong draw almost as default play. i used to fire because i thought, "i cant call a bet, but i want to continue with this hand, so if i fire now and they call...great... AND if they raise, i will have odds to continue." and, that thinking was spew, imo.

however, i am getting the impression there ARE spots for this approach. when?

and, do we care about giving odds to 67? it seems we have nothing to protect in this pot. if its HU, sure, we bluff at it. but, being multiway, why protect a draw?

thats another mistake/leak i thought i had cut back on. but, if there are spots to protect a draw, i would love to hear them please. (other than nut flush draw in 5way pots type of stuff...in which case i guess its not protection, but value)

again, maybe its a factor of the stakes, but i think i was being overly aggro when i thought this way. it seems the passive play of draws is paying a bit better in multiway pots. in HU pots, i am still very aggressive with them.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

asdpikas

09-30-2008, 02:17 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdpikas

i give myself fewer outs since there are two hearts up and i only have a Q overcard (surely its tainted, too)

This is true against the whole field, but if you only get 1 caller, you are cleaning outs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

this is why i asked if it was spew to semibluff this turn. i dont know if its a factor of the stakes, or if its ME being results-oriented....but, past few months it feels like i'm getting called all day by these players here. i, then get forced to fire the river with what amounts to a bluff with Qhi, and that sucks....feels like spew. the easy part is realizing you MUST follow through on a semibluff, most times, if you want the pot because you have to sell what you advertised.

If more than 1 villain calls, you shouldnt fire the river UI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

i used to have the problem of what i put in bold. i can see that approach on the river for sure, but...i used to fire at a pot, to build it, when i had a strong draw almost as default play. i used to fire because i thought, "i cant call a bet, but i want to continue with this hand, so if i fire now and they call...great... AND if they raise, i will have odds to continue." and, that thinking was spew, imo.

Well, the problem is if you get raised, and if there's a chance that will happen, u shouldnt fire, and it is spewy. but if u have passive players and dont expect a raise, then you gain additional ways to win (u clean outs, u may get them to fold right there, u may get it HU and bluff the river, u may hit your hand)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

however, i am getting the impression there ARE spots for this approach. when?

The fewer villains the better, the more passive they are the better, the less interest they've shown (no PF raise, no bet on flop...) the better...
If you are last to act, you should fire them on flop more often, to keep initiative and maybe take a free card on turn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

and, do we care about giving odds to 67? it seems we have nothing to protect in this pot. if its HU, sure, we bluff at it. but, being multiway, why protect a draw?

Well, we aren't protecting, we are cleaning outs and bluffing. If we check and a guy w 6h7h on button decides to shoot, u are probably done with the hand (squeezed in the middle, not good odds), whereas if you had fired and maybe get a couple hands to fold, and a call from that guy you win a lot since u now have the best hand, that guy called without the odds, and he will only win if he hits.

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