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Too straightforward or what?

  
 
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TylerK
Old 05-09-2005, 03:22 AM     Post subject: Too straightforward or what? #1 (permalink)  
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I can't help but think that being a little less obvious might have won me a couple more bets...

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, A.
Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG+2 3-bets, 7 folds, Hero caps, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 3, 5, 8 (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 05-09-2005, 03:29 AM #2 (permalink)  
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you'll lose bets more often than gain bets by trying to check-raise them.
 
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ChezJ
Old 05-09-2005, 04:06 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 i just found this in theory of poker pg 68:

...with two aces against a good player in a limit hold 'em game, you should often not put in all bets. A reraise is fine because you could have a variety of hands. However, if your single opponent reraises again, you should probably just call. If you raise one more time, your opponent figures you for two aces. All you have gained is one small extra bet right there, but you may have cost yourself two or three bets later on. In this case, you have lost too much by giving your hand away. You stand to gain more by using deception.

this was immediately following a paragraph saying that in NL hold 'em, it is worth buying the pot pre-flop if several people have raised, even if it means revealing that you have obvious aces.

personally i fail to understand the distinction. let's discuss.

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Fnord
Old 05-09-2005, 05:01 AM #4 (permalink)  
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...with two aces against a good player in a limit hold 'em game, you should often not put in all bets. A reraise is fine because you could have a variety of hands. However, if your single opponent reraises again, you should probably just call.

Vegas 5-bet cap. We're working with a 4-bet cap here.

Hero's line is fine, it gives the least risk of missing bets, also quite often the villian will play back at you with KK/QQ/JJ on a flop like that.

I've been looking for check/raises when dealing with players that auto-bet when checked to on the turn, but in a circumstance like this it won't fly often enough without a damn good read.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-09-2005, 05:56 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 call the three bet preflop in a HU situation. Raise the turn no matter what the board is. As long as you look like you might fold to one of his bets (pause a long time before you flop call) then most likely he'll keep betting and you'll get that extra SB from him. Also a chance he'll reraise you on the turn here, giving you an option to cap.

What do you think the probability is of him checking behind on the turn here in relation to the extra 1/2 bet or more you'll get?


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Fnord
Old 05-09-2005, 06:28 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
call the three bet preflop in a HU situation.
I disagree. Call as a mix-up, but you should cap most of the time. Given that we're almost always playing against unknowns that mostly suck at this game anyway you can't go very wrong capping here every time. You should be capping AA/KK/QQ/AK in this spot anyway against an unknown. Although cap range is strongly impacted my our villian's 3-bet range. Against a pre-flop aggro villian JJ/TT become capping hands.

Are you better off getting in .5BB with the nuts and a huge edge or trying to get in a bet later when you may not even have the best hand? Also consider that having a smaller pot and c/ring the turn might be more likely to make a hand you're a huge favorite over correctly fold instead of call down.

Limit hold'em is a game where boring, straight forward play more often than not gets the money.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Fnord
Old 05-09-2005, 06:42 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Exhibit A:

Hero raises AA, Villian 3-bets AKo w/ position, Hero calls.

Flop: blank
Hero checks, Villian bets, Hero calls

Turn: blank
Hero checks, Villian checks (planning to call any non A or K river, otherwise raise), Hero cries
Hero checks, Villian bets, Hero raises, Villian folds
Hero checks, Villian bets, Hero raises, Villian calls down taking AK to his grave (net +.5BB)

Exhibit B:

Hero raises AA, Villian 3-bets JJo w/ position, Hero calls.

Flop: ???
Hero checks, Villian bets, Hero calls

Turn: ???
Hero checks, Villian bets, Hero raises
Villian may fold
Villian probably calls down (net +.5BB)
Villian 3-bets his set and you pretty much have to call-down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Shark Bait
Old 05-09-2005, 07:08 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Limit hold'em is a game where boring, straight forward play more often than not gets the money.
I agree with this mostly. People that get cute and check raise and slow play are going to either not win as much as they could have, or lose to a someone that got some cheap cards.

I have no problem capping preflop with aces, I don't care if they think I've got them, there is no way I'm going to let them see a flop cheaply with some crap cards.

What's so wrong with making everyone fold? Pocket aces don't win every time. I'd rather take the sure thing and win 2BB instead of keeping everyone in the hand and lowering your chances of winning significantly.
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Fnord
Old 05-09-2005, 07:52 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Bait
What's so wrong with making everyone fold? Pocket aces don't win every time. I'd rather take the sure thing and win 2BB instead of keeping everyone in the hand and lowering your chances of winning significantly.
I'd rather them make a call with 2 (or 0) outs than fold.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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ChezJ
Old 05-09-2005, 08:15 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 yes i went thru the same thought process as fnord outlined when i made my post. my conclusion was that aces are the best hand pre flop so you might as well cap it preflop instead of getting fancy for a minimal extra bet at a huge risk. maybe sklansky's implication is that the risk is very small in a heads up situation. i don't care, i'd rather take the sure thing and get my money in up front before the board fucks me.

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Fnord
Old 05-09-2005, 08:30 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChezJ
maybe sklansky's implication is that the risk is very small in a heads up situation.
Details, details. In the example given, you've been 4-bet, so you shouldn't 5-bet-cap because it would give away too much information. Also, quite often Sklansky's earlier material assumes you're dealing with a reasonable player unless stated otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-10-2005, 03:50 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 If my read is a TAg I'm not capping preflop. If he's a fish i'm pumping as much as I can out of him.


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