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Too Gunshy?

  
 
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JJDylan
Old 08-10-2005, 05:02 AM     Post subject: Too Gunshy? #1 (permalink)  
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PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T, J.
5 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) K, 5, T (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 6 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 8 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB



check ok? or did i chicken out of an extra bet?
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Shark Bait
Old 08-10-2005, 06:40 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I find myself in this position a lot. Sometimes I just wimp it and check fold, other times I'm aggressive and bet to the river. A lot of times people that call you on the turn have the high pair, just with a weak kicker, and they will call down with it.

I'm looking forward to some advice from others on a situation like this.

Another problem is if you're betting the whole way, and then you stop on the river, it looks like a missed draw and then they're betting with any piece of the board. Then you have to decide if it's worth another BB.
<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!
 
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moiraine57
Old 08-10-2005, 10:56 AM #3 (permalink)  
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I am curious too, what others would do in a similar situation to this.

-Hit midpair after a PFR.
-Fire out another bet, 1-2 people call
-Fire out a turn bet after a not scary turn...1-2 people call
-River: still haven't improved

What now? I wish I could give advice to the OP, but I can only tell him what I have tried and has not worked.

-I have tried check calling on the flop, then check raising on the turn to mimic a slowplay. I am met with momentary bewilderment, but sure enough, will get calls with TPWK even after a river bet.
-I will try betting the flop, then giving up from there (unless there are obvious draws on the board my opponents possess.)
-I will try straight up aggression until the river, but sure enough, will be called straight through by anyone with TPWK (my kicker is NG?!! Impossible!! I have top pair!!!)

I seem to lose less when I just give it up....I am trying to because a better player, read that limit is all about aggression...but being aggressive at lower limits with midpair seems to do nothing but lose you money. You will have to pry that TPWK out of your OPP's dead hand before you will get him to lay it down.

Does anyone have a standard line with this? It seems as though everytime I hit mid pair with 2 other people (especially with a PFR), someone will always hit top pair, even if the law of odds would seem to dictate otherwise.
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rubixstreub
Old 08-10-2005, 02:02 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moiraine57
I am curious too, what others would do in a similar situation to this.

-Hit midpair after a PFR.
-Fire out another bet, 1-2 people call
-Fire out a turn bet after a not scary turn...1-2 people call
-River: still haven't improved

What now? I wish I could give advice to the OP, but I can only tell him what I have tried and has not worked.
In this situation, when you hit middle pair after a PFR, usually you've got a pair of 10's, J's, or Q's as your middle pair, looking at a Q, K, or Ace on the board. I think the line is much like a continuation bet in NL. You can take a stab at it on the flop, but if you don't improve on the Turn with no draws, you should probably check/fold.

The situation is a little different if you have a medium pocket pair when rags hit (88 looking at 3 6 9 rainbow). Everyone with overcards is going to be calling you. I like to take a stab at the turn even if something big hits. But usually you'll get a raise if it helped someone and then I back off. If it's heads up I'm usually betting into them the whole way hoping they fold/never hit anything.
Come give me advice.
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Fnord
Old 08-10-2005, 04:48 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Other players suck too hard not to bet this river.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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koolmoe
Old 08-10-2005, 05:56 PM #6 (permalink)  
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The BB could have anything. You're probably ahead, and even a fold has some value to you (you won't have to showdown a JTo steal).
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JJDylan
Old 08-10-2005, 06:12 PM #7 (permalink)  
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If i bet this river, what do i think the BB has? What do you put him on when he calls you on every street? Club Draw? maybe a hand like A5 or A6? By the river i usually put the BB on a hand like a weak K or maybe even QT which is why i didnt bet here. I ended up winning this hand, BB showed down J6 of clubs...but without a read, i guess i should be betting here more often than not?
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Fnord
Old 08-10-2005, 06:20 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Don't put people on hands, put them on range of hands. Given the quality of play and lack of aggression shown that range is so wide and he will call so often that betting middle pair on the river should be easy money. I see no compelling reason to think you're beat here more than 25% of the time.

Until you find these bets, avoid short-handed and TAggy games.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Gatlin Dan
Old 08-11-2005, 05:15 AM #9 (permalink)  
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One thing that may make me consider checking is that the button called two cold and was the only one to do so in a small pot.

I think there is value in betting the river, but don't think checking behind is terrible here. If he's on a draw, he's not going to call anyway.

This is a situation where knowing your opponent proves to be extremely valuable. If I have seen him cold-call (even just once) with a marginal hand, I bet it everytime.

"A lot of fortunes are made on what you don't play."--"Miami" John Cernuto
 
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Demiparadigm
Old 08-16-2005, 01:31 AM #10 (permalink)  
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I check behind on this river also. If he was on a draw, he will fold, and if he has a king he will call.
I think despite the fact that you have the best hand the majority of the time, a bet is often -EV since better hands will call and worse hands will fold.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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Fnord
Old 08-16-2005, 02:34 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
I check behind on this river also. If he was on a draw, he will fold, and if he has a king he will call.
I think despite the fact that you have the best hand the majority of the time, a bet is often -EV since better hands will call and worse hands will fold.
What game are you playing in? Worse hands call this river way too often in the PokerStars semi-loose/weak/passive 1/2 game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Demiparadigm
Old 08-16-2005, 03:57 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
I check behind on this river also. If he was on a draw, he will fold, and if he has a king he will call.
I think despite the fact that you have the best hand the majority of the time, a bet is often -EV since better hands will call and worse hands will fold.
What game are you playing in? Worse hands call this river way too often in the PokerStars semi-loose/weak/passive 1/2 game.
Good point. I haven't played 1/2 in a while. Also, looking back at the HH, I first thought Hero was MP2, but from the HiJack, I bet this the whole way also. A lot of players even at 5/10 will call you down with a pocket pair, hoping to pick off your bluff. (though a lot of players at 5/10 will also raise you on the turn with any hand with showdown value)
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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Old 08-16-2005, 05:32 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Bet the river.
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