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Chopper

07-11-2008, 05:42 AM Post subject: tonight's challenge..

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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here is an arbitrary 6max starting range for microstakes games. how would you tweak it and why?

UTG RANGE--
limp...66+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s+,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+ ,JTo+
raise..TT+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs+,AJo+,KQo+
3bet...top 1/2 of villains range

MP RANGE--
limp...66+,A2s+,K6s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,A8o+,K9o+,QTo+ ,JTo+
raise..88+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs+,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo+

CO/LP RANGE--
limp...66+,A2s+,K2s+,Q8s+,J8s+,79s+,A8o+,K9o+,Q9o+ ,J9o+,T9o+
raise..66+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs+,89s+,A8o+,K9o+,Q9o+ ,J9o+,T9o+

blinds are a bit tougher, but one rule: complete SB w/ any two suited and connectors down to 45o, 1-gappers down to 68o.

another rule: call almost everything you limped when raised pf. and, call anything you raised when 3bet. AVOID calling two cold like its HIV. (contrary to public opinion, i believe its 'ok' to open/limp SOME stuff on passive micro-tables. however, i would rarely do it, and not with so many hands as UTG's range would suggest here.)

just the basics covered here. no "player adjustments" yet.

people are always asking "whats your range?" to people in forums when they start out at 6max. so, is this decent? or would you tweak it with some explanation?

thanks.

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elipsesjeff

07-11-2008, 06:01 AM

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I hate your limping UTG as it really doesn't play well and you can't count on the necessary. In fact the only hands that play well to a limp/call of these OOP are the smaller pairs.

I can MAYBE see open limping some on the button if your facing a really aggressive or really bad calling station on your left who is going to call you down to the river with ace high a lot in raised pots.

For better hand ranges please consult my unofficial 6max guide/post I made a while back.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...on-t65026.html

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asdpikas

07-11-2008, 06:21 AM

#3 (permalink)

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I hardly ever limp first in, maybe small pairs if the table is passive, else i fold them
most of your limping hands, i raise if first in, fold if raised before me, some i might limp along if limped before me.

open limping invites your weaker opponents to limp along without making much of a mistake if any at all because of increasing pot odds.
Also, if not raised, BB cannot make any mistakes.
If u raise, and your weaker opponents call with weaker hands, they take the worst of it making a gross mistake. If raised, BB has to decide wether to play the hand. Putting him to a decision that may cause him to make mistakes, thus increasing your gains in the long run.

I dont mind open limping some speculative hands in FR loose passive games, where u may get up to 7-8 players to limp along, but in 6max, the best case scenario will be 5 more players, which will almost never happen. Thus, in 6max, the effective and implied odds for your speculative hands are much reduced making them much less lucrative, if at all.

asdpikas

07-11-2008, 06:35 AM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

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My ranges (more or less)

raise if first in:

UTG:
ATs+, AJo+, 66+, KQ, KJs, QJs, JTs

HJ:
add ATo, A9s, KJo, KTs, 55, T9s

CO:
add A9o, A7s+, KTo, QJo, QTs, 44

BT:
add 22+, A2o+, K7s+, K9o+, Q8s+, Q9o+, J8s+, JTo, T9o, 89s

if raised before me, i'll 3bet top50% of my range for the position of initial raiser without reads.
if 3bet before me, will 4bet TT+ and AKs only, adding AKo sometimes. Without reads

I will coldcall on the button very rarely with small pairs or the highest SCs if i expect SB and BB to come along most of the time.

In SB i'll complete if limped by 2+ players:
any 2 suited cards, any connectors, one gappers and 2gappers. If table is weak or all players are in, add all 3gappers.

elipsesjeff

07-11-2008, 06:06 PM

#5 (permalink)

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The problem with open limping isnt the fact you guys can't outplay terrible opponents postflop and make a little bit of profit. The problem is that profit wont overtake the rake that you have to pay just to play the hand.

There's a reason why all of your profit comes from AA (and to better players KK), all the other hands just cancel out the rake and the blinds that you have to pay.

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Chopper

07-11-2008, 06:23 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

The problem with over limping isnt the fact you guys can't outplay terrible opponents postflop and make a little bit of profit. The problem is that profit wont overtake the rake that you have to pay just to play the hand.

There's a reason why all of your profit comes from AA (and to better players KK), all the other hands just cancel out the rake and the blinds that you have to pay.

would you mind going into a bit more detail in this? initially, this makes sense to me, but i'm not sure how.

oh, and glad to see you back in here, jeff.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

asdpikas

07-11-2008, 06:29 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by asdpikas

Thus, in 6max, the effective and implied odds for your speculative hands are much reduced making them much less lucrative, if at all.

hardly lucrative - rake = break even or loss

Chopper

07-11-2008, 06:57 PM

#8 (permalink)

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i'm sure this is "level dependent" because when i checked, i am showing more than AA/KK profiting. what i mean is AA/KK have won about $90, and i have won $125 total. thats $35 coming from other places.

surely, that will change. but, it also has to be a function of playing such crappy opponents. what i DO know is that i'm not ready for the LHE Hall of Fame because i can show my profit comes from more than AA...lol.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Chopper

07-11-2008, 11:04 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Location: St. Louis, MO

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

would you mind going into a bit more detail in this? initially, this makes sense to me, but i'm not sure how.

oh, and glad to see you back in here, jeff.

the first part also sounds like when you said "over limping," you meant to raise KTo if on BTN and 2 other limped and blinds are loose to combat rake?

wow. that one really needs clarification for my small brian (brain...lol).

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

elipsesjeff

07-12-2008, 12:05 AM

#10 (permalink)

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i edited my original post, I meant to say open limping. Over limping becomes another subject entirely; but I like isolating for value more than for deception.

The more your opponent limps OOP the weaker I get in raising, same thing for reraising too. Against some players you could value reraise KJo on the button because they were opening so many pots. Unfortunately those guys would stop playing vs me and would get up when I sat down lol.

For good overlimping hands I still recommend the SSH tight LP chart (for 6max too) and see what they say on the over limps with some of the hands.

Quote:

oh, and glad to see you back in here, jeff.

Glad to be back, although I am a little rusty!

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

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Jibalob

07-12-2008, 12:10 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Posts: 512

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

This is such a huge generalisation that it could very easily be misinterpreted.

You could equally say that AA/KK cancel out the blinds and your profit comes from playing the trickier hands better than your opponents.

I see what you're saying though; looking at my stats I am essentially a losing player if you remove my profits from AA and KK, thats not to say that other hands aren't +EV (I am 100% confident this is not what you meant but it could be interpreted that way).

My database is quite small at the moment since I changed computers recently but from 17.5k of hands of 6-max I have filtered to show hands:

where I was not in a blind
where there were 1+ limpers before me
where the pot was unraised when the action was on me
where I called, and called any raise behind

This leaves 132 hands which I agree is a tiny sample size but its currently showing a 68.37BB/100 profit.

I would be interested to see the results from a larger database.

Edit: your most recent post wasn't there when I typed this - I 100% agree on the open-limping issue.

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Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]

elipsesjeff

07-12-2008, 12:18 AM

#12 (permalink)

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My point was that a lot of players don't realize how hard it is to just overcome the rake and blinds in these games; the more marginal hands you play without a discount you have to be sure you have an equity edge above a certain threshold in order to play them.

A hand like 97s vs 4 random hands only gives you a 2% equity edge over you opponent in the long term. The rake takes that and makes you a loser and if your out of position your edge is cut even more, especially in raised pots.

Open limping small pairs MAY be profitable only if we can get 3 other calls to afford us the 5-1 price preflop to set mine.

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Fnord

07-12-2008, 12:21 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Position, Position, Position, Position, Position, Position, Position, Position, Position

Marginal hands out of position is not the path to profit.

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Jibalob

07-12-2008, 12:30 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

A hand like 97s vs 4 random hands only gives you a 2% equity edge over you opponent in the long term. The rake takes that and makes you a loser and if your out of position your edge is cut even more, especially in raised pots.

Semi-OT I know but I was quite suprised when I ran this in pokerstove and came up with the same figure, I must admit I expected more than a 2% edge.

PLEASE READ ULTIMATE BET THREAD IN "ONLINE POKER ROOMS" FORUM
Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]

DrivingDog

07-12-2008, 11:11 AM

#15 (permalink)

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If you take out the open-limping hands and just raise first in with the raising hands you will be making a HUGE improvement.

But, these are loose games and probably you want to tighten up your range even more. A9o is not easy to play if you raise from MP and get three or four callers.

In a typical loose micro game I might use a range something like this (always open-raising):

UTG: 99+, AJ+, KQ, A9s+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, T9s

MP: add 77+, AT, KJ, A7s+, KTs, QTs, 98s

CO: add 55+, A9, KT, QJ, A5s+, K9s, J9s, T8s, 87s

Btn: add 22+, A7, K9, QT, J9, T9,

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

elipsesjeff

07-12-2008, 03:44 PM

#16 (permalink)

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I don't understand why you want to open raise suited connectors, did i miss something since I've been gone?

Your UTG range is a little too loose IMO, I'd add in 77+ and take out A9s, AJ, KQo, and T9s. AJo/KQo is breakeven in this position regardless if you raise/fold so it just increases your variance if you do want to play it.

your MP raise is pretty good, although you just add all broadway cards and take out the 98s

CO looks pretty decent, but frankly with the right button on your right your CO range and your Button range can be very close. I don't mind raising the suited connectors up in this spot with poor blind play by your opponents.

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Chopper

07-12-2008, 08:13 PM

#17 (permalink)

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ok, guys. lets get the debate fired up. DDog, i'd like to see you combat the suited connector question, to be honest.

and, with all these donkeys down here, should we be playing gappers...even on the button, if they dont contain paint?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

DrivingDog

07-12-2008, 08:56 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Dunno - QJs, JTs, 98s are winners for me UTG, as are AJ and KQ. T9s is a very small loser but maybe those other hands are profitable because I'm playing mid stakes. I also open 55-88 in my games.

For the sake of argument, the suited connectors are eaiser to play than offsuit broadways and mid-pocket pairs in multiway pots (which you expect most of the micro pots to be) you're not raising a lot of them (QJs, JTs, T9s, and 98s is about 12% of your opening range) , and they add balance, making your hand harder to read.

Of course Jeff has a point in that they don't win as many pots as the offsuit broadways, and the balance aspect assumes your opponents are actually paying attention, which may be a big assumption at micro.

You could probably toss JTs, T9s, 98s from your UTG range if you're not confident in playing them, but I would keep AJ, KQ. So many of your loose opponents will cold call you with hands like A8, KT, etc. - hands you dominate - and will pay you off the whole way that those hands just have to be played imo.

For the sake of another debate, I don't like opening any broadway in MP. Hands like KTo, QTo, JTo. Making TPMK or MPGK in multiways pots is not something to look forward to. QJo is ok because it has more straight possibilities.

Really what you should focus on is postflop...

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

Chopper

07-12-2008, 09:51 PM

#19 (permalink)

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i'll tell you one thing that continually helps me when reviewing "profitable hands" is...

opening PT and looking through a somewhat decent sample (10k-15k hands), and looking through which hands are profitable and which arent. finding that "line" between which hands should be played, and which shouldnt can be easily done that way.

also, its easy to define a raising vs limping range that way. (i know we are saying to never open limp. i am saying that AJo may not be a raise if 4 players limped in front if you tend to overplay it by raising it and going nuts post flop.) you will see that AT is a money maker, but AJ is not. that can mean that we are overplaying AJ. either raising/re-raising it too much, or simply playing it too often from poor positions.

at microstakes, i would tell people to play all your profitable holdings, and maybe one or two clicks of unprofitables, so long as its slight. stick to that "range" of hands, and learn postflop from there. sometimes, you will find that AKs-A5s are showing profit, but A7s and ATs are not. that doesnt mean dont play those...the group as a whole is showing profit...if that makes sense. i want to see two or more in a row showing losses to convince myself that there is a "line" there.

i would venture to say that, below 1/2 (maybe 2/4), very few players are watching you, specifically for exploitables. and, just playing rather abc is often best. but, you need to know, imo, which kickers are likely good w/o much thought. or which sc's are worth playing. or where the overplayed hands are and how to fix them.

starting with preflop stuff definitely wont make an expert out of a limit player (or any player for that matter), but it will "set them up for success" by keeping them out of harms way while they learn.

when i hit coolers, i often revert back to a tighter range just to cut down on the "play the player" stuff and get a little closer to basics. it seems to work.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

elipsesjeff

07-13-2008, 05:21 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

starting with preflop stuff definitely wont make an expert out of a limit player (or any player for that matter), but it will "set them up for success" by keeping them out of harms way while they learn.

I've always liked this idea.

I'm not disagreeing that AJo can't be a profitable raise UTG at the micros, where you will get cold called by a lot of garbage. But, as you move up I recommend taking it out of your preflop range as you'll find people will stop cold calling with their garbage hands.

Also, in a LHE game, I've always liked treating AJ like it was AT and AQ like it was AK, at least preflop.

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