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RiverMonkey

03-18-2005, 06:04 PM Post subject: Today's CardPlayer Hand-Quiz

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

Ok, same question (see below), but replace $30-60 with $2-4 or $3-6 PP.

I'll start my analysis by saying that I don't think the check-raise bluff is something you generally need to worry about @ PP$2/4.

Q1: Check or bet the turn?

Q2: What's your play on the river if:

o you check the turn and your opponent checks too, or
o you bet the turn and get called

----

Other Turn Play.

Question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A $30-$60 game. You are on the button holding the A-K. Everyone folds to the cutoff, who opens with a raise. You reraise and only the cutoff calls. There is $230 in the pot and two players. The flop is: 7-6-4, leaving you with two overcards and a backdoor flush-draw. Your opponent checks. You bet and he calls. There is $290 in the pot. The turn is the 5. He checks. What do you do?

Answer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check. This is an exception to the rule about following through with a bet on the turn after showing all the strength before and on the flop. That low four-straight on the board is more dangerous for the preflop raiser than the caller (who is supposed to be tied in with the flop in some fashion). There are too many hands where your opponent has you drawing dead. By betting, you are also vulnerable to a check-raise bluff or semi-bluff.

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Rondavu

03-18-2005, 06:58 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

I would definately raise here. He raised preflop before you reraised, so there's very little chance he has anything. I would put him on KQ, AJ, something in that viscinity. If he check raises you, then base your further action on the player tendacy. To me, the only reason he even called your flop bet was because he knew you had some kind of overcards and also didn't hit. A bet in this situation makes him fold 4 out of 5 times.

I don't understand the logic of fearing low cards against a preflop raiser, unless he intentionally raised garbage to keep you honest. Then again, that's the one time out of 5 you lose. You gotta raise here. There's no mathmatical reason to check IMHO.

Checking here gives him credit for raising then calling a reraise with something like K8 or A3. Does that seem likely?

Quote:

That low four-straight on the board is more dangerous for the preflop raiser than the caller (who is supposed to be tied in with the flop in some fashion)

Who says? Neither of you are tied in. Your both drawing blanks. RAI$E! Any opponent that has the straight here short of pocket 8's is a bad poker player that will suck you out now and pay you later. Once again "HE CALLED YOUR RERAISE!"

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

Room

03-18-2005, 07:34 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 197

although my response may be anti-aggressive, i think checking is the correct play. you may or may not be ahead but i think with AK you want to see a showdown on this flop for as cheap as possible. Exactly like the answer says, betting behind sets you up for a c/r. therefore, to see a showdown:

betting the turn = may cost you 3 BB (your bet, the c/r, and his river lead)
checking then calling a river bet = will cost you 1 BB

i think our objective with AK on this flop is to see a showdown as cheaply as possible. betting goes against this strategy.

AidanN20

03-18-2005, 07:44 PM

#4 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 106

I agree on the check. There is already a decent pot, and I dont believe raising is going to get him to fold. If he is holding a pocket pair of any kind he has you beat, any pocket pair he holds is going to be better than the cards on the board (or he hit a set and is just letting you bet into him for the check raise).

Your not trying to build a pot holding only high card. Just see the showdown as cheap as possible.

Dont F' with me, I can grind it out like a bot

Rondavu

03-18-2005, 07:53 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,053

It's only a matter of style. I bet this because I feel I'm ahead. When I'm ahead I always bet. I don't think things like "I might have him kicked so let's check for cheap in case I am". That to me is too conservative. In a perfect world two people in a hand would check down when neither hit. If I'm in that situation, the aggressor wins without showdown a lot. I'm not checking down to find out we have the same hand for a split pot. I'm giving him every chance to make a mistake by folding the pot to me.

Your right though, if the guy feels pot committed, he's gonna call you down sometimes. Some people are gonna put you on high pocket pair with the reraise however, and will most definately fold.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

Chicago_Kid

03-18-2005, 07:55 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...

Posts: 1,132

If I were the CO, I would definitely go for the C/R with the str8. If I were button, i would definitely check. No need to throw good after bad, as you could be up against a mid-pair, trips, straight.

On the river w/o a flush, I would cry/call down, I suppose.

Now, the 2/4 vs 30/60 probably changes things. I would assume the 30/60 would very likely go for the c/r, while the 2/4 player you just don't know. But it's not worth getting raised to find out IMO.

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

Rondavu

03-18-2005, 07:59 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,053

I think the question here is this....

In 5 hands exactly like this, how many of them is AK the winner? You gotta give at least 3 of them to AK here given the betting patterns. If you win 3 out of 5 of these broken flop hands, what harm is it to get check raised on one or two and then fold?

It seems the long term math supports raise, but I'm no expert. Am I wrong to think that raising is profitable long term in this scenerio?

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

Chicago_Kid

03-18-2005, 08:00 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Although in contrast to my opinion, I think your reasoning is well put, Rondavu.

Question: If you were the CO, would you C/R bluff?

I would guess this might happen at 30/60, but almost never at 2/4.

Question 2: If you were button, would you fold to a C/R?

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

Rondavu

03-18-2005, 08:33 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

Question 1:

If I'm the cutoff a check raise never happens. To know why the check raise isn't likely in this situation, you have to go back to the flop and address what happened there. The CO checked. What that tells you is he doesn't have a straight draw against the big reraiser or he would bet the draw to make the button chase overs. Another reason to bet the draw is to get information regarding whether the button has a high pocket pair. If you get raised then it is apparent.

So you see, if I was in the CO one away from the garbage straight after the flop against a rearaiser preflop, I would have led out a bet in the first place on semi-bluff. I don't see checking a board on the flop when your on a strong draw against obvious face cards. I would have bet the flop, then I would have followed through on the turn hoping my straight is deceptive given the flop bet. (The button is more likely to fold against someone coming alive when a straight shows up as opposed to someone who bet before it shows up. He may call down now and give you two bets.)

Question 2:

I would usually not fold to a check raise who didn't bet the flop for reasons stated in the answer to the last question. If he had the straight, he would have bet the flop if he has any idea how to play poker. I might fold if I think the person is more on the novice side, and plays tight postflop. This would be a classic move for a new player that is too tight for their own good and just hit their straight after not betting the draw for that straight.

By the way this is another good reason I bet when checked to on the turn in the example above. I just don't believe he has the straight here. I absolutely do not fear it.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

gabe

03-18-2005, 08:51 PM

#10 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2004

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Posts: 7,964

gabe is an unknown quantity at this point

I bet it! It's headsup and the board missed him, represent the high pair.

Room

03-19-2005, 01:35 AM

#11 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 197

assuming the CO is legitamate, what hands does your AK beat? the likelihood of the CO holding a hand that has you beat is pretty good. betting the turn will lose you money in the long run. after his call of your bet on the flop, there's (roughly) 5BB in the pot. check the turn, and you are getting 6-1 to call his river bet, if you feel you have at chance of winning at that point.

Gatlin Dan

03-20-2005, 02:04 PM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Wild Bill's Backyard

Posts: 504

I think it all depends on what you think he may try to steal with. PP low limits, I'm betting this and check calling the river if raised on the turn. C/R bluff is remote, but a bluff if you check is not. I bet it and make the crying call if raised.

RiverMonkey

03-21-2005, 10:04 PM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

CO raised pre-flop ... why would one assume he has connected with the flop? I wouldn't .. necessarily. I just can't see how you can credit your opponent for the str8.

@ PP$2/4 a check-raise bluff is VERY unlikely.

Given the pre-flop call to your re-raise (instead of re-raise), I'd put my opponent on a middy pocket pair, or AK/AQ or something similar. Unless of course, he's tricky and wants to disguise that he's on QQ, KK or AA.

My answer = 'it depends' ....

Sometimes, I'm feeling frisky; my reads of my opponent and his likely holdings tell me that I'm likely to win the pot on 4th street with a bet. e.g. your opponent also has AK; taking down the whole pot is a coup . ..... Or, better yet your opponent has AX with X<K, and he calls you down.

Sometimes, I'm feeling more conservative/feel that my opponent might be trying to dupe me; I'll check on 4th, and try for the cheap showdown.

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