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Tips for newbies on playing K7s, Q5s, J4s etc in LHE (or NL)

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ArcticKnight

02-14-2005, 05:49 AM Post subject: Tips for newbies on playing K7s, Q5s, J4s etc in LHE (or NL)

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

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I was going to post this on the beginners section, but with so many players playing these hands I thought it would not hurt to hit a larger audience...

If you are new to game you have probably read lots about starting requirements or starting hands. If you were like me when I first started, I thought “wow, that’s not very many hands to play – I’ll be folding pre-flop most of the time.” Yup, that’s correct.

When you gain more experience, you will be able to adjust your hands based on a number of factors, but in this post I wanted to provide a tip on how to play a few tempting hands. In specific, I refer to suited hands with one relatively big card and one small card. My advice on how to play these is DON’T.

Although K7s, Q5s, J6s, can look very coordinated in your hand, don’t let your eyes deceive you. These are dangerous plays, despite the temptation.

Now you might be saying that you have a flush chance, as well as a pair that will hold up (or even two pair – what the heck, a full house). But, let’s look at the facts through your options.

Flush Options

When holding two suited cards you will flop a flush about 1/100 times (1%). You will hit 2 of your suited cards on the flop about 11% of the time. From your flop of two suited cards, you have about a 35% chance of hitting the flush by the river. Realistically, then, you have about a 1 in 10 chance of pursuing your flush draw past the flop. And if you do hit it, you are subject to a higher flush, or even a full house.

You might say, why bother at all with flushes? Keep in mind that hands such as AKs, AQs, AJs, A10s, KQs, KJs, etc all have at least five ways to win
Top pair and Top Kicker (TPTK)
Two high pairs
Straights
Flushes
High cards in uncontested pots or against missed flushes and draws
(Not to mention ,three of a kind, in which you will probably have a strong kicker)

How many of the above options are realistic with your Q6s ?? That’s right, just the flush, and not a strong one at that.

Connecting with the low card

Ok, so you realize that your flush chances are not that great, but with Q7s, for example, you figure you have a shot at a Q or 7 on the flop, and see where it goes from there. Unfortunately, though, your “see where it goes from there” approach is what got you in to the pot to begin with, and each look-see after that is costing you $$

But, let’s suppose the flop comes 10, 7, J rainbow. Great, you got one of your options – you paired your 7s. The only problem is that if anyone bets, you correct option is to fold. Why, you have bottom pair and a weak kicker, and at best you have 5 real outs. And here is another problem. That Q (one of your three outs) that you would like to see on the turn….…look what it does to the board 10,7, J, Q. I’ll let you count the possible straights here. Do you still think you have 5 good outs now?

Keep in mind, I’m not just painting the worst-case scenario here. Let me give you a good flop for your 7. What if the flop comes 7, 5,4?. Now you have top pair. But, there is a straight possibility (not for you, though). And, sorry to say, you are basically dead here.

Isn’t it clear? We know you’d like to see a Q7 on the turn, but if not, what cards will hurt you? Well, partner, just about every one of them. A,K, J, 10, 9, 8 take your top pair away, and 6, 5,4,3,2 makes straights/draws or board pairs. (Note: a lower boarded pair is a double-edged sword: it can make you a winner, if it does not make trips for someone else. Oh, did I mention we still have the river…..)

Connecting with the High Card

OK forget the 7, because you do have your Q. Well, let’s say you get a favorable flop of Q, 10, 6. Ok, you have top pair and you bet only to get raised by someone. Oops. Sure, he or she might have a 10, or a 6 (or a pair, or nothing at all), but if they do have a Q, how strong do you feel about your 7 as a kicker? Have a look at any list of starting hands. Do you see many with Qs that don’t have you outkicked already? This is another case where getting what you hope for may not even be profitable…..

Summary

In closing, I will admit that high/low suited cards do look pretty. But, there are reasons that (in general, that you should not play them). Keep the following in mind:

Save your flush draws for those found in the recommended starting hand lists (i.e. AKs, AQs, AJs, A10s, KQs, KJs QJs, J10s etc), You can play 98s, 78s etc selectively once you gains LOTS of experience. Remember, the above hands give you several ways to win, of which the flush is only one.

High/Low pockets will cost you MUCH more than you will make in the long-term, as many of the situations you hope for will just bring you deeper into a losing pot. This is not to say you can’t win hands with these cards, but you will lose more than you make in the wrong.

Hope this helps someone

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

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johnnyawe

02-14-2005, 06:13 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

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Nice post.

TylerK

02-14-2005, 06:16 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Nice post, though I think you could have stopped at "don't."

TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol

ArcticKnight

02-14-2005, 06:19 AM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TylerK

Nice post, though I think you could have stopped at "don't."

Thanks,

But for some strange reason people want to know "why" - lol

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

guitarhero14

02-14-2005, 06:29 AM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

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man, the first thing to come into my head when i read the title was DONT. Nice post btw.

-guitar

elipsesjeff

02-14-2005, 06:34 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Shoot, these cards are g00t....

Anyway, I'm quoting soupie here, but knowing the rules and knowing when to break the rules are two completely separate thing.

If everyone has limped in front of me and i'm on the button, you better believe I'm playin just about any hand I can look at. Suited or connected.

Pacific brings up recent memorys. Seven player flops with pots continually over 20 BB or more, any two suited becomes a dream hand.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...hlight=pacific

and an even bigger favorite:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...hlight=pacific

mmmm, suited cards.

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ArcticKnight

02-14-2005, 06:56 AM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

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[
If everyone has limped in front of me and i'm on the button, you better believe I'm playin just about any hand I can look at. Suited or connected.

And if I ever have K4s and seven players have limped in ahead of me, I will too. . But, I have only seen a full field of limpers in a 5/10 or 10/20 10hand money game about.........,never................but when it happens I'll post here and let you know how it worked out.

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

elipsesjeff

02-14-2005, 07:10 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

And if I ever have K4s and seven players have limped in ahead of me, I will too. . But, I have only seen a full field of limpers in a 5/10 or 10/20 10hand money game about.........,never................but when it happens I'll post here and let you know how it worked out.

You dont need that many limpers to make the limp be profitable. As long as you know how to play postflop, 5 limpers is generally enough to at least make any two suited break even. Let alone if they can at least resemble being connected.

Its all about being able to adjust your game to the style of play. In tight games you are forced to fold marginal-strong holdings because of the odds. But being able to adjust your type of play according to the situation is key.

If you've never played Pacific, then you have never seen loose.

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rmariani

02-16-2005, 01:20 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 117

I had the feeling (maybe that's because I'm a bad player) that Axs or Kxs were actually good hands from lte position, altough I never took into consideration THE NUMBER of players os the pot!!!!
I understand how that can affect the decision to play or not these hands.
Just one quetion: Assuming that one should play Axs and Kxs on late position with 5+? limpers (is this a correct assumption?), it's equally right to play it to 5+ callers of a raise?

Fnord

02-16-2005, 01:52 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

How do you figure? T2s? 23s? 72s? Gimme a break...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

02-16-2005, 02:25 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

How do you figure? T2s? 23s? 72s? Gimme a break...

I just need a reason to be in the pot.....

And you're telling me you arent trying to get in a pot with 5 limpers with the blinds to go? I'd say play any two connected but that gets a little loose for me.

Pacific not treating you well?

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Fnord

02-16-2005, 03:38 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Pacific has been treating me great. Up $700 on the month there and I haven't even been playing there much. Pulled down a $200 pot this morning playing 3/6 with.... JJ.

Being sooted is great in a loose game, but you really need something else to go with it. Then again I'm often driving 4-5 tables so I don't bother with spots that are about break even once you factor in the rake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

jbmagic

02-16-2005, 03:55 PM

#13 (permalink)

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ArcticKnight

great tip

any more good tips will be welcome.

elipsesjeff

02-16-2005, 03:56 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

If I were playing that many tables at a time then I wouldnt be able to play my suited cards either. MOST of my big pots at Pacific have come off of crap suited cards, where I usually get great pot odds to river a good 20 BB pot. If I play pacific its usually a leisuraly game, I wont have pacific and Party open at the same time. The great thing about suited cards is that you usually know if you have a hand or not on the flop, and you can usually build a great pot while drawing.

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wwonka

02-16-2005, 04:26 PM Post subject: the other day

#15 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 120

I was at a 25nl on bodog and 7-8 people were seeing the flop so it became profitable to see it cheaply.

boy that can be fun but it can also get crazy.

peace
wwonka

ripjohngotti

02-16-2005, 05:05 PM

#16 (permalink)

Full House

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its about a 6.4% of hitting flush i believe....

but ur right if u wouldn't play it unsuited dont play it suited...

30%

Still looking for my royal flush.

elipsesjeff

02-16-2005, 05:09 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ripjohngotti

its about a 6.4% of hitting flush i believe....

but ur right if u wouldn't play it unsuited dont play it suited...

Thats incorrect. I would play JTs much more than I would JTo, and what about A9s? And all those other S00ted aces in a multiway?

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ChezJ

02-16-2005, 05:12 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rmariani

Just one quetion: Assuming that one should play Axs and Kxs on late position with 5+? limpers (is this a correct assumption?), it's equally right to play it to 5+ callers of a raise?

Yes. The odds are favorable to cold call multiway in LP.

Fnord

02-16-2005, 05:13 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Being suited can turn a break-even or small loser into a long-term winner. Our aim is to play as many winners as we can in between the blinds....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ripjohngotti

02-16-2005, 05:14 PM

#20 (permalink)

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You wouldn't play j/10 from late position with say 3/4 limpers??

About the aces yeah you really shouldn't even play a/9 suited all your tryign to get is a miracle flush, if you wanna take my statement like that.

30%

Still looking for my royal flush.

elipsesjeff

02-16-2005, 05:19 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmariani

Just one quetion: Assuming that one should play Axs and Kxs on late position with 5+? limpers (is this a correct assumption?), it's equally right to play it to 5+ callers of a raise?

Yes. The odds are favorable to cold call multiway in LP.

Cold calling = Bad. I think its more profitable if you were to 3 bet here if UTG was the raisor and he had 4 callers behind and you had position. Although, I wouldnt recommend it. Of all the suited crap I play, the one thing I dont do with it is cold call. Generally Axs is an easy fold facing a raise if X < T.

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Fnord

02-16-2005, 05:19 PM

#22 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ripjohngotti

You wouldn't play j/10 from late position with say 3/4 limpers??

If it's offsuit I fold. Particularly if the limpers don't like to raise a lot pre-flop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

02-16-2005, 05:31 PM

#23 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ripjohngotti

About the aces yeah you really shouldn't even play a/9 suited all your tryign to get is a miracle flush, if you wanna take my statement like that.

No way man, what I was trying to say is, you should play A9s and pretty much all Axs with that many people in the pot. In fact, raising A9s here wouldnt be a bad play. Get as much money in the pot as possible when chasing a flush (I wouldnt cap with it though). Whereas, A9o is an always fold, outside of blind steal/defense; A9s can be played from a lot of positions, and quite profitably too.

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Fnord

02-16-2005, 06:05 PM

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A9s is a value raise against 6 fishy players, although it is quite a drop-off from ATs.

7,910,104 games 391.359 secs 20,211 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 16.6196 % [ 00.15 00.01 ] { Ac9c }
Hand 2: 13.9047 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 3: 13.8879 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 4: 13.8870 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 5: 13.8777 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 6: 13.9100 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 7: 13.9131 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }

---
6,993,413 games 345.766 secs 20,225 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 18.8037 % [ 00.17 00.01 ] { AcTc }
Hand 2: 13.5343 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 3: 13.5327 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 4: 13.5167 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 5: 13.5149 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 6: 13.5515 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 7: 13.5462 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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