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Thoughts on rake at 6max.

  
 
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euphoricism
Old 06-15-2006, 01:32 PM     Post subject: Thoughts on rake at 6max. #1 (permalink)  
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Mr Fnord got me thinking (that bastard...)

So... purely a self-interest post, I'm only going to deal with 5/10 and 10/20 here. I think this is interesting to note. Kind of like, "no shit", but it has some ramifications.

At 5/10 6max I'm paying approximate $0.22/hand in rake. ElipsesJeff says at 10/20 he pays approximately the same. So let's make our math easy. For sake of example we play 10k hands and break even, and so we've paid $2,200 in rake at both levels.

In terms of our winrate...

at 5/10 we're losing 2.2bb/100 to the rake.
at 10/20, we're losing 1.1bb/100 to the rake.

Ergo, we'll show an immediate 1bb/100 profit simply by moving from 5/10 to 10/20 due to the rake being a substantially smaller portion of a bet, and therefore a smaller factor in ones overall profit.

Thoughts? Is it something that can make our bankroll requirements shift a little, say from 500bb to 400bb?
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Old 06-15-2006, 03:30 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I think you are right, that should effect bankroll requirements. How much, I don't know. Anyone know any formulas for bankroll ... the chance of busting out and so on ... should be able to modify the #s and figure out how much effect the rake has.
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Old 06-15-2006, 03:47 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Obviously the games are considerably tougher at 10/20 so your edge will be smaller hence your bankroll requirements will be larger.
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Old 06-15-2006, 04:49 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Obviously the games are considerably tougher at 10/20 so your edge will be smaller hence your bankroll requirements will be larger.
Not really they are just bad in totally different ways...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~


Eupho, sure you are right but the problem still remains that you need to have a large enough BR to take a hit of like 250bb about and still be able to stick out the game... I think that if you have a side job then 500bb is more then enough, i think if you don't have a side job you might consider having a larger BR... I don't think that 300bb for 6max is enough...

Given I took a +500bb swing and a -500bb swing last month at 5/10 I think that the largest swings would cripple you if you not careful...
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Harry
Old 06-15-2006, 07:04 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I just did the math and I lose 3.2bb/100 to rake at .50/1.00 =(
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Old 06-15-2006, 07:24 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry
I just did the math and I lose 3.2bb/100 to rake at .50/1.00 =(

wow that blows
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euphoricism
Old 06-15-2006, 07:40 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Not only does it blow, it cripples. It is very hard to move up in stakes in shorthanded limit.
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Old 06-15-2006, 08:16 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Not only does it blow, it cripples. It is very hard to move up in stakes in shorthanded limit.
umm i never had a problem with making money i went from 1/2 SH to 5/10 in about 6 months...
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Ltrain
Old 06-15-2006, 08:22 PM #9 (permalink)  
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To answer your question for myself, I can't guarantee that moving from 5/10 to 10/20, even if the players are the same, will have the same results because of getting used to the difference in $$ levels (ex., holy crap!, I just lost $140 just by calling down HU!)
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euphoricism
Old 06-15-2006, 08:26 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Not only does it blow, it cripples. It is very hard to move up in stakes in shorthanded limit.
umm i never had a problem with making money i went from 1/2 SH to 5/10 in about 6 months...
Not meaning to be a dick, even though it sounds dickish, but... then what happened? Its like there is a wall between 5/10 and 10/20. I've felt like that for a LONG time. Is this that wall?
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euphoricism
Old 06-15-2006, 08:31 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltrain
To answer your question for myself, I can't guarantee that moving from 5/10 to 10/20, even if the players are the same, will have the same results because of getting used to the difference in $$ levels (ex., holy crap!, I just lost $140 just by calling down HU!)
Valid point, but I dont think it applies for me. I've had my -$2000 days and frankly, I don't care about the money much anymore.

I'd just like to start making some.
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euphoricism
Old 06-15-2006, 08:33 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Not only does it blow, it cripples. It is very hard to move up in stakes in shorthanded limit.
umm i never had a problem with making money i went from 1/2 SH to 5/10 in about 6 months...
Not meaning to be a dick, even though it sounds dickish, but... then what happened? Its like there is a wall between 5/10 and 10/20. I've felt like that for a LONG time. Is this that wall?
The problem is that at 5/10 the rake is the first level that the rake is capped at just about every hand. It is not like that at 1/2 through 3/6.
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MSG85
Old 06-15-2006, 08:47 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 2.3bb/100 in rake over my first 4,000 .50/1.00 shorthanded. Ouch.

Good thing I'm runing hot.
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pokerfanatic
Old 06-15-2006, 08:52 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Not only does it blow, it cripples. It is very hard to move up in stakes in shorthanded limit.
umm i never had a problem with making money i went from 1/2 SH to 5/10 in about 6 months...
Not meaning to be a dick, even though it sounds dickish, but... then what happened? Its like there is a wall between 5/10 and 10/20. I've felt like that for a LONG time. Is this that wall?
I don't play 5/10 anymore; I’m back down to 3/6... Maybe that's because I went on a sick up swing of $3k to $7.9k then a sick down swing to $3k again basically broke even...

On the down swing it started as variance and I turned it into something more, wasn't playing my A game on top of the variance... shit happens we learn from our mistakes... i would love to still be playing 5/10 to me that game was easier to beat then 2/4 or 3/6...

This seems to be Turing into kind of a theme today, but 5/10 plays like small stakes games and extremely "tricky"....

10/20 is just one of those games starts a different type of play, player still suck donkey balls but in many different ways... I guess if you wanted to call there being a "wall" between 5/10 and 10/20 I guess you are partially correct, there is a bit of a fence you need to jump and adjust to the other side... there is no getting around it, I just think that when I see Jeff take +/- swings of $1k and him tell me it's not that big of one (50bb), when I was working for him I spent many hours studying the play of 10/20 and noticed 50 to 100 small differences between that game and your typical 3/6 and 5/10 games...

These differences are so small that unless you have played a long time and started to see how the avg donkey plays at the level you couldn't pick up... I think it's a level where you have to go into it expecting to break even or lose unless you run good...

It's hard to put into words the differences in the levels, I just give the warning to anyone making the jump, hopefully you have the roll, hopefully you are mentally prepared, and hopefully you can figure out how to extract the different kinds of weakness players have at that level...

This is why I just think that if playing professional moving up limits can become more complicated process then someone that has a regular day job… I think you need a big enough BR to take big swings and not have it affect your mind set what so ever…

I’m not saying you are not technically prepared or not skilled enough for the move that’s not what I mean, what I mean is that if you are not prepared and have your emotions in check -$1k even though it’s a standard swing at 6max can turn your life miserable, I’ve been there, first time I moved up to 5/10, same thing happened to me, then the 2nd time it didn’t bother me, until I hit the -$5k mark and by that point my game was crushed…
If you think you are conferrable with less then 500bb, then go for it… but playing professionally how are you going to take it if you drop 100bb, and you only have say 300bb, now you have 200bb left and if you take another hit of 100bb your in real big trouble, left with almost nothing and your mind questions every play you make… it turns into an ugly ass situation I have been there a few times… I don’t need to sit here and say what any one player should do, when it comes to BR rules it’s kind of relative, if you are fine playing any 6max game with 300bb do so… it’s just not me…
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euphoricism
Old 06-15-2006, 09:12 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG85
2.3bb/100 in rake over my first 4,000 .50/1.00 shorthanded. Ouch.

Good thing I'm runing hot.
See, I see this, and it makes me wonder if something is wrong with my thought process. It seems like the rake is 2bb/100 just about everywhere EXCEPT 10/20 (and conceivably, above).

I have about 10k hands at 2/4 here...
182 bets in rake, in 9674 hands = 1.88bb/100

What is going on here? EVERY level loses 2bb/100 to the rake EXCEPT 10/20?

I can only think of a few things:
A) Jeff is innacurate in his reportings of the rake he pays at 10/20. I doubt this.
B) Something is wrong with our thinking. Possible, but I dont see what.
C) 10/20 is the only stake worth playing, assuming you won't be shark bait.
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Old 06-15-2006, 09:30 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG85
2.3bb/100 in rake over my first 4,000 .50/1.00 shorthanded. Ouch.

Good thing I'm runing hot.
See, I see this, and it makes me wonder if something is wrong with my thought process. It seems like the rake is 2bb/100 just about everywhere EXCEPT 10/20 (and conceivably, above).

I have about 10k hands at 2/4 here...
182 bets in rake, in 9674 hands = 1.88bb/100

What is going on here? EVERY level loses 2bb/100 to the rake EXCEPT 10/20?

I can only think of a few things:
A) Jeff is innacurate in his reportings of the rake he pays at 10/20. I doubt this.
B) Something is wrong with our thinking. Possible, but I dont see what.
C) 10/20 is the only stake worth playing, assuming you won't be shark bait.
The reason for this is that the pots don't start getting bigger than the rake cap very often until 10/20. This means the rake will be roughly the same at every level until 10/20 at which point it becomes steadily lower as you move up. It also tends to be slightly higher at party 3/6, because more pots manage to hit the point where they are raked, but the pots don't get big enough to hit the rake cap.
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Harry
Old 06-15-2006, 09:31 PM #17 (permalink)  
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The rake at 2/4 is capped at the same level as 10/20, which has much larger pots.

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euphoricism
Old 06-15-2006, 09:54 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Bingo.
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MSG85
Old 06-15-2006, 09:55 PM #19 (permalink)  
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 So wait. If I'm paying 2 + BB/100 (about an hour) at .50/1.00 It's actually costing more in rake than a $20 + 2 SNG (usually last an hour, but it can vary).
Assuming a win rate in short handed of 2BB/100, I'd only need an ROI of 10% to match it for the same amount of rake? Yuck.
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Old 06-15-2006, 10:05 PM #20 (permalink)  
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ZOMG! My opponents play so terrible, how can anyone not beat this game?!?!?!
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euphoricism
Old 06-15-2006, 10:05 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Fnord wasn't lying when he said the short handed rake is "fucking retarded".
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euphoricism
Old 06-15-2006, 10:12 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
ZOMG! My opponents play so terrible, how can anyone not beat this game?!?!?!
You amuse me, good sir.
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Old 06-15-2006, 10:29 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Let me put this another way.

You're paying $22 per 100 hands to swim in the pond and farm the local fish in a very high speed, high variance game. You're paying even more if you start adding more hands (in an attempt to defeat tight/boring players.) If you feel your edge is considerably greater and can deal with dropping mad cash because you only managed to beat the fish for $11/100 for a stretch, PARTY ON DUDE! If you have a phat rakeback deal and can fish at the pond at a considerably lower rate, ENJOY THE PARTY.

When I played full ring with a stupid-high edge, I would swing 50bb daily, 100bb was a downswing and 200bb was really bad. I get that SH the swings are double, but people are talking 500bb swings. As your edge decreases the swings get worse, so you got to wonder just what your edge is and how much room you seriously have against people who play SH Hold'em too loose and very aggressive while fighting the rake.

Fail that, there are better games out there that will give you less stress if you're only comming up 1BB/100 above the rake. If you only play a few hours a month and like cashing out, there are way better games out there.

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Old 06-15-2006, 11:13 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Solution - switch to NL- it has low variance and much bigger margin to beat the rake in mid stakes games.
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Old 06-15-2006, 11:17 PM #25 (permalink)  
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... or move up to 10/20, assuming you can afford it, and feel you can beat it, so that the rake isn't anywhere near as much of a factor.
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Old 06-15-2006, 11:41 PM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
... or move up to 10/20, assuming you can afford it, and feel you can beat it, so that the rake isn't anywhere near as much of a factor.
Those are pretty big prereqs there

Just did the math based off my last week of RB at CD Poker. Holy crap I didn't know the rake was hitting me that hard, ~2.5 BB/100

I've looked at a few site's rake schedule, and I didn't realize how much more .5/1 and 1/2 got hit than the higher stakes. I knew it was more, but not that much more.

Seems like the best way to move up is just play a lot and let the RB and bonuses pile up
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Old 06-15-2006, 11:53 PM #27 (permalink)  
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 Stop flying off the handle guys geez. The games are still beatable for 1.5 BB+/100 hands even with the rake. You just have to make the right adjustments for the games. At levels up to 3/6 6 max, you'll have to play significantly tighter, like 21/16 VPIP/PFR and just value bet the hell out of your hands.

At 5/10 you have to start playing a little loser, at least 25/20 or so and then you can make up for some of the rake on the marginal hands. Even at 10/20 All of my hands counteract the blinds and rake EXCEPT for AA, which is my net profit overall. The more hands you add and can be successful at the more you can counteract the rake and therefore increase your winrate.

Its why I've been running closer to 28/22 the last 20k hands or so and I wouldn't say I'm killing the game just yet, but I'm definately doing better than I was playing 24/18 at the same stakes, which is definately better than 22/17. Who knows? I thought about adding in some more hands that could be even more marginal, like some more broadway cold calling hands and work on playing them correctly.


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Old 06-16-2006, 12:20 AM #28 (permalink)  
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I'm losing 2.1 BB/100 to the rake at 3/6.

Clearly the most profitable way to get money from poker is to be the house. If I were the house, I'd make more than I currently do just from my rake alone. Add in thousands of other players losing money to the rake, and that's a pretty sweet deal.

Time for me to start a cardroom.
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Old 06-17-2006, 10:05 PM #29 (permalink)  
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You also must consider operating costs (servers, employeees, tech support, investigations), bad debt (there is a price to fast/easy buy-ins), paying off netteller, affiliate cuts, reload bonuses and advertising. That being said, 6max LHE is a huge cash cow for Party right now.
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