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Thought High Cards were good

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NWNewell

08-28-2006, 12:35 PM Post subject: Thought High Cards were good

#1 (permalink)

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Hand 1 - $10/$20 Limit Holdem - 5 players

Pre-flop: (5 players) NWNewell is BB with 6

3 folds, SB calls, NWNewell checks.

Flop: a

(2SB, 2 players)
SB checks, NWNewell checks.

Turn: k

(1BB, 2 players)
SB checks, NWNewell bets

************************************************** ******************

Hand 2 - $10/$20 Limit Holdem - 5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) NWNewell is Button with A

2 folds, NWNewell raises, SB folds, BB 3-bets, NWNewell calls.

Flop: J

(8.5SB, 2 players)
BB bets, NWNewell raises, BB calls.

Turn: 9

(6.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, NWNewell bets, BB calls.

River: 9

(8.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, NWNewell bets

In hand 1, I honestly thought my Queen High was good.

In hand 2, I doubted that he had a J (Although I might have been spewing a little). But when he was content to call and I had JJ99 on the board, I felt my Ace High was good.

Thoughts? Stupid play or Smart attempt?

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

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elipsesjeff

08-28-2006, 03:15 PM

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Hand 1: Betting the flop is less risk for the same reward. You only have to win this 1/2 to make it a profitable bet whereas by the turn you are getting 1:1 odds. Hard for me to explain but betting the flop is better.

Hand 2: What do you put him on here? He probably didn't have a J but if you were ahead, you're only going to get a worse hand to fold by raising. Also, no point in betting the river either, as you are most likely going to split at best if he calls and if he folds you don't gain any extra money. With the ace here, checking behind is definately +EV.

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NWNewell

08-28-2006, 05:00 PM

#3 (permalink)

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I understand what you are saying about hand 1. I agree taking a stab for 1SB is better than taking a stab for 1BB for the same reward.

But that doesn't take into acount my read (which I failed horibly to provide to you in the orginal post). I felt like this guy was resonably loose/passive (I think he was like 50VIP/10PFR). I wasn't sure about trying to push him off the hand on the flop. But when the turn paired the second ranked card and he still checked, I was pretty sure he completely bricked the board.

True, pure risk verses reward... trying to pick up the pot on the flop would be much better.

However, when you take into account the my read (uncertain on the flop, confedent on the turn), I think the turn bet was stronger.

In my mind while playing this hand I felt like:
Flop: Pot odds 2:1, Win odds ~50% (maybe, uncertain) => EV=+0.25BB
Turn: Pot odds 1:1, Win odds ~75% (at least I felt pretty confident) => EV=+0.5BB

The flop check may have been a bit passive, but I just wasn't feeling it (so to speak... lol)
But on the turn, I was feeling pretty confident.

If I had a better feel on the flop, you are right... it would have been a better risk vs reward than the turn.

Also, something to think about. If I take a stab on the flop, and I am called, then check behind on the turn... If we both have bricked the board, I run the risk of being bluffed out myself on the river. With that in mind, would it be better to make an attempt on the turn. Many players are more likly to call a bricked flop than the turn. And you don't have to worry as much about being bluffed on the river. This would also result in my oppoenent getting two free cards for 1SB instead of one free card for 1BB (true, so do we... but if I have any thoughts that I'm ahead, I don't want to give away free cards).

I don't know... this was not my main intent of this perticular hand... but something to think about.

As far as hand 2, I agree with you. The river bet doesn't accomplish anything. If we are head, he folds. If we are behind he calls. As far as the rest of the hand. I don't know if I like it or not. As I said, I didn't think he had the Jack. But I'm a little iffy on this play. I find myself doing this every now and again heads-up with position (particulary when I have an Ace). On a paired board with the third card being a rag, I often raise the flop and continuation bet the turn. If I'm playing this wrong, I'm costing my self a a decent buck in the long run. So, further insight on the flop & turn play would be appricated!!

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

elipsesjeff

08-28-2006, 06:08 PM

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Well, regarding hand 2, bluffing is very rarely +EV in this game. Only semibluffs where you have at least 8 outs are optimal, and they won't work most of the time. The raise on a paired board is like saying 'I don't have the pair either' and usually symbolizes a weak holding. If you were up against me, I would have called this down with AJo maybe even ATo+, only because I know you don't have that much either. You will only fold Kx hands that bricked that you were ahead anyway to, and, would have likely fired all three barrels with air.

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NWNewell

08-28-2006, 06:39 PM

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Fair enough.... it looks like this is a big leak I can plug!!

What would your typical like be when you are bet into on a board like JJ3? Fold (which is usually what I do when I didn't raise)? Calldown?

Thanks again for the feedback!!

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

midas06

08-31-2006, 04:57 AM

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on that same note Jeff, doesn't the bigger bet on the turn give him worse outs if he calls down?

elipsesjeff

08-31-2006, 05:06 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by midas06

on that same note Jeff, doesn't the bigger bet on the turn give him worse outs if he calls down?

? Did you mean odds? I probably would probably just trash it on the flop. If you are drawing, its 3 outs if you're lucky and if you hit your Ace and are ahead, you arent going to get value out of it.

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midas06

08-31-2006, 06:09 AM

#8 (permalink)

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yeah I meant odds ofc

midas06

08-31-2006, 06:10 AM

#9 (permalink)

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and I was tlaking about your comment about hand 1

elipsesjeff

08-31-2006, 12:45 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by midas06

and I was tlaking about your comment about hand 1

Yes, but when was the last time you saw a donk follow the 'odds'? You also risk giving a free card that would have folded on the flop but will now see a showdown.

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KY_Ace

12-25-2006, 09:03 AM

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Hand #1 i like the turn bet, you get a free river and you still have 6 outs if the guy is check-calling with 9X ( X being lower than Q ). He probably has no pair, why give him a chance to make a pair or bluff you out on the river? An interesting thing about this hand is that if he has 55 you have 9 outs to win and 3 to chop, so it would be a good semi-bluff!

With that board I wouldn't be afraid to bet into 4 opponents if they check to me on the turn. An ace bets the flop, ther's only 2 kings left, a nine would have a hard time calling, and even if they call the turn you can river them or bet anything higher than a 9. The middle card pairing after the flop is checked is a great time to steal the pot ( or bet a very weak possible best hand ), it's even better if the middle card is below the playable cards.

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Thought High Cards were good

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