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Thinking of Moving up again.

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Damian

10-10-2006, 11:41 AM Post subject: Thinking of Moving up again.

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Manchester UK

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My first post on this forum was all about the problems I was having moving up from 5c/10c, to 25c/50c

I'm now doing fairly well at the 25c/50c limit. For the last two/three weeks now, I seem to have cracked it. I've tightened up, not that tight, but around 25 VP$IP. I've become much more aggressive pre and post flop - 8% PFR and an aggression factor of 3 post flop.

When I lose, I lose two or 3 dollars. Or a really bad night, maybe 5. When I win, I win 8 or 10 dollars. On a good night 20. I'm now winning between 12 and 20 BB/100 hands.

I played last night, and won $9.99 in an hour and 15 mins. I've had a few goes at multi-tabling, and tend to do OK, but I prefer to concentrate on one table and study the players.

So now I want advice on what should I do? Should I move up to 50c/$1? If so should I increase my bankroll, as I only keep a modest £120 roll? Should I have more patience and carry on building my bankroll at these limits for experience, rather than adding money myself?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. As I know many of you are very experienced.

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Damian

10-10-2006, 11:43 AM

#2 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2006

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Oh, and just to pre-empt you NWNewell. - Ive bought the book, and I'm reading it now.

NWNewell

10-10-2006, 01:36 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian

Oh, and just to pre-empt you NWNewell. - Ive bought the book, and I'm reading it now.

Love it!! lol....

I think 25% VPIP is really high for FR. But as long as you play post flop well and draw correctly, you can get away with it in very loose/passive games. If you are getting there by limpping a lot form the later posiions, then I don't have too much of a problem with it. But make sure you are not cold calling!! It is is not much of a mistake, IF ANY, to NEVER cold call. If you are facing two bets cold, you you should pretty much be folding if your hand is not worth a 3-bet!

PFR% and Post Flop agression looks good to me.

and most will say that if you don't have the 300BB bankroll for $0.25/$0.50, don't move up yet. This is very good advice. But if you have enough for 3-4 buy-ins at $0.25/$0.50 above the 300BB required for $0.05/$0.10 (i.e. say $75 or $80) , then it is ok to give $0.25.$0.50 a shot. But the second you don't have enough for a 0.25/$0.50 buy-in above the 300BB required for $0.05/$0.10 (< $42-43), drop back down!! You don't want to risk leaving yourself short rolled for your current level by taking a shot at the higher ones!! That is the biggest thing to be concerned about when you are trying to move up!!

If you don't have at least $75, I wouldn't move up yet (not because of skill.. but becuase of variance and bankroll management). If you have the skill to move up, you will get to $75 at the $0.05/$0.10 before long.

Bankroll management must be the number one priority for a poker player. It is our life-blood, our tools. A carpenter can't make a living by building houses without his hammer! We can't make money playing poker with our bankroll!

And with that.... Good luck with your jump. Be carefull not to cold call, or limp in out of position too much.

"May the flop be with you!"

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

Damian

10-10-2006, 02:06 PM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Manchester UK

Posts: 24

Good Advice Mr Newell - Thankyou.

I tend to play premium hands hard, and aggressively. And if I'm in late, and there are passive players after me - that I'm fairly sure will fold/limp - I'll limp in with some medium hands. Ive started to take position into account much more than I did - which has made a MASSIVE difference.

NWNewell

10-10-2006, 03:00 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian

Yes..... position is good!

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

arkitekton

10-10-2006, 08:21 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

I'm now doing fairly well at the 25c/50c limit.

How many hands are we talking about, Damian?

When I first started moving up in limts, I put in about 30 sessions at .50/$1 and won or broke even in every single one. It's not so much that I was running well, but that I never ran horribly for an entire session, and there were always enough bad players that I could compensate for less than average cards. So I stepped up to $1/2, had two good weeks of 4000 hands, then six weeks of horror where I broke even. Then in one seesion of 1000 hands I dropped 135 big bets. I wasn't doing anything particularly different, but I was actually losing money for that session on hands with three of a kind. Against my AA the coldcaller with 63s beat me and the big blind who called with 85off beat me. My point is, even if you're a good player, you'll have downswings. So my question is, what does the money mean to you? If you lose your roll, will you have to wait six months before you can start playing again--and is it worth that risk to you? There's also nothing wrong with trying .50/$1 from time to time while you're playing primarily at .25/.50. Some good players will step out at the higher limit once a week to get their feet wet and take the edge off a later move up. Another way to try to judge is to watch 1000+ hand s at the higher level. See if there's a marked difference in the play, and if it's anything you think you'll have a lot of trouble handling (and if so, why!).

Damian

10-11-2006, 08:02 AM

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Arkitekton. We're looking at just under 4,000 hands at 25c/50c - 3,600 in fact.

With regards to my bankroll - thats not too much of a worry I suppose, I could replace a couple of hundred dollars in a month if need be - as a work full time. A few friends have asked actually - "If you can afford to play with a few hundred dollars, why start at the micro stakes tables" But I do want to move up step by step - as I think it will help my experience levels, and my game as a whole. I also wanted to grow my bankroll organically - through playing - rather than just keep topping up.

Its a very good idea to get my feet wet by playing at 50c/$1 once a week, whilst continuing at the lower table. And I could get Poker Tracker to watch a few tables at the 50c/$1 level to see how play differs.

Thanks for the advice.
Much appreciated.

NWNewell

10-11-2006, 12:03 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian

Agreed... move up step by step. At this point, treat it as a video game that you are trying to beat, level by level. It shouldn't be about money at this point. It should be about becomeing proficent at poker stratagey and building skill and beating the video game!!

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

Damian

10-11-2006, 03:47 PM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Manchester UK

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Thanks Newell.

Incidentally, when did you start playing? And how quickly did you find yourself moving through the levels?

NWNewell

10-11-2006, 05:47 PM

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Well, I started playing about a year and a half ago.... but I'm not the best example.... I didn't play all that much, or consistantly, or seriously when I started playing.

In some ways, I moved up too qucking (always short rolled). But in other ways , I didn't move up very quickly at all (didn't play a lot early on, and didn't play well... my win rate was probably terrible)

I deposited $50 into Pacific Poker (and got a deposit bonus of like 25%) and started playing the $0.05/$0.10 tables. I bought Texas Holdem for Advance Players. Read it, but didn't study it. And just started playing very tight, agressive preflop (and shamefully kind of weak tight/agress post flop.... if I didn't hit top pair, decent kicker or a flush or OES draw, I was out) and worked my way up to about $100 over a few months of speratic play and started playing $0.25/$0.5. Over the course of almost a year of playing speratically, not so seriously, week tight/agressive play, I worked my way up to almost $6,000 and and was playing some $30/$60 tables (I was pretty short rolled almost the whole time, usually 100-200BB). (don't know for sure how long it took, how many hands I played, win rate, etc. because I didn't have Poker Tracker or take poker that serious).

Then I started to get my ass kicked and fell back down to about $2000 or so. I realized this game wasn't as easy as I thought, but still really enjoyed it.

I finally started taking my game a little more seriously about 6 months ago or so. Read some more books SSHE, SS2. And started winning a little bit again. Worked my way up to about to about $4000-5000 and was playing mostly $5/$10 (finally properly bankrolled for the first time since I was at the $0.05/$0.10 tables), and dabled some in the $10/$20 tables. Didn't get Poker Tracker until about 4 months go.

As I started consciously trying to improve my game, I realized that my postflop play sucked. I realized that 6max would give me good exposure to postflop play and really help improve my game. But the problem was I started playing $5/$10 and $10/$20 6max (definitely not properly bankrolld for 6max) took a huge down swing, mostly due to poor play and adjustments for 6max (I won't lie).

And now humbled back down to the $3/$6, being BR concious, and trying to rebuild and improve my game. (we'll, actually playing a little $0.5/$1.0 right now with the little dough I have in PokerRoom... withdrew my bankroll from Pacific due to the legislation issues and am waiting for things to shake out a little before I redeposite.... but thinking about depositing in UB and/or FTP soon)

So, while I've been playing online here and there for about a year and a half, I've really only started taking the game seriously about 6 months ago, or so....

I played stupidly and weakly when I started, and I realize that now. I was lucky I survived... and the preaching I was doing was to help you to not make the same mistakes I did.

At least that's my story, and I'm sticking too it!

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

Damian

10-12-2006, 08:07 AM

#11 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2006

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Posts: 24

Love it.
Great story, I love hearing how people got started.

So, how much do the tables change at the $10 above limits, from the Small and Micro's? I always think that The Jackal and The Mouse wouldn't exist up there. And it's a table full of Rocks and Eagles battling it out.

NWNewell

10-12-2006, 05:45 PM

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Well, I'm probably not the best person to ask. I don't think I'm good enough, or have enough experience, at that level to properly rate the game style.... but since you asked (and anyone who knows more/better can feel free to correct me)...

It seemed to me that play gets significantly tighter and more aggressive, obviously. You will often find some jackals and some mice, but they are definitely fewer, and not as extreme as you see at the lower limits. At least this is my take on Pacific’s 15/30 & 30/60 games (didn't play that high anywhere else)

As far as mice go... I mean, at the lower limits, I've routinely seen people call me down with a big over pair they whole way (like QQ, while I'm betting AJ on a Jack high uncoordinated board...

). At the higher limit, I occasionally see people calling down with some thing like KT against my QQ with a king on the board, fearing kicker trouble or something (but this is significantly rarer than what you find at the lower limits). Most of the people you might call mice at the higher limits are actually somewhat decent TA (although a bit on the tigher side), but they play pretty weak TA post flop. (as I said, not as extreme as the mice you find at the lower limits)

As far as Jackals go.... there are actually quite a few players that are borderline jackals. But most of them do it a little more wisely, are not as extreme as their lower limit counter parts. Hands are usually 2-3 way post flop. So, especially when heads-up with position, many players are trying to push you off the pot. Or try to make a bluff on the turn or river when what might be a scare card hits the turn or river. The lower limit jackals are often pretty extreme and maniac-ish, and on't really have much rhyme or reason to their play. So, you can just avoid them until you get a decent hand, call down with good hands, and get into a re-raising battle with monsters and make a profit. At the higher limits, the jackals are usually more like borderline jackals/lions. They usually have a reasonable understanding of the game and position, but at times seem to lack good judgment. They are not terribly loose, and when they are loose, it is usually with position preflop. And they will often try to push you off the pot with any chance they get post flop. There are some wild jackals/maniacs… but no where near as many.

Table selection becomes much more of an issue (something I didn't realize then), but the catch is there are less tables to choose form, so this becomes pretty difficult.

Most players play the obvious + & - EV plays well. It is the closer, more marginal situations that become the difference between winners and losers. The line between winning play and loosing play becomes much thinner.

But that is my amateur opinion anyway......

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

pokerfanatic

10-14-2006, 01:35 PM

#13 (permalink)

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I have been kind of thinking about posts such as this where people ask if they should move up and the genial response is "what is your BR?"

i have to wonder even if you do say lets say 300bb (it's a typical number for FR min BR rules but i use more BB then other people personally)... anyways, I was thinking that even if you do have 300bb for the next level it might not always be a great idea to move up just yet...

i used to be big on as soon as i had the "correct BR for a stake" i would move up, even if i had only spent like 1 month or something at the previous limit...

i think that ended up turning around and biting me in the ass, because i don't think i gain some of the experience that i should have before moving up, so i almost have to question if a person that is asking about moving up really should move up...

my reasoning is that if you have to ask your peers if you should even if you have the right BR it comes of as a lack of confidence in your play to me, so therefore i would almost tell you to stay at your current level unless you truly are beating it for i'd guess 2bb/100 or something if you are betting it at 0.5bb/100 don't move up yet stay there till you start crushing that game...

Anyways that's my 2cents on the matter...

“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord

arkitekton

10-18-2006, 05:05 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Good points and good questions, Damian. It's something we each need to think through for ourselves.

Hey--here's another reason to have a proper bankroll. When I sign onto a site for the first time I'll usually try the play money tables just to get used to the software, set up the options, and so on. I'm doing that now at pokerstars.net, at the 10/20. The players are abominable, and after half an hour I have yet to win a hand and I'm down close to 50 big bets. It can just happen, and there's nothing you can do about it.

arkitekton

10-18-2006, 07:26 AM

#15 (permalink)

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Bemused update: down 100 big bets--won one hand of 150

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