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Is there such a thing as too tight?

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Shotfrog

02-22-2005, 01:29 PM Post subject: Is there such a thing as too tight?

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Boston, MA

Posts: 42

Here's my problem, and once again the answer might simply be that this is too short-term to draw any real conclusions from, but I'm going to try anyway.

I'm only playing premium hands. I've seen the flop just over 25% of the hands I've played, and the vast majority of those have been in the BB. This strategy worked the first couple of times I played, and since then I've been trending steadily downward. Is it possible I'm playing too tight? I've definitely folded what I'd consider marginal hands only to find that I would have won, like when I folded A2o and the flop contained two more 2s.

It's gotten to the point where I'll have KK, see an ace hit the board, and know I've lost. And I always do.

Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.

Winner didn't even know it was a pie-eating contest

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G_host

02-22-2005, 01:38 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: Sweden

Posts: 227

With 25% VIP you don't sound too tight. Probably more that you are not aggressive PF. Post some hands and I'm sure Fnord wil set you straight.

And stop looking at hands that you coulda won. Best way to start limping with hands that only can get you into deep trouble,

Fnord

02-22-2005, 01:40 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

You sound a little loose pre-flop and too tight post-flop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

TylerK

02-22-2005, 01:50 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME

Posts: 1,791

VP$IP and "% of flops seen" are not the same. If the majority of the 25% are from the BB, his VP$IP is 12.5% or less which, IMO, is way too tight.

TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol

Shotfrog

02-22-2005, 01:51 PM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Boston, MA

Posts: 42

When I get home tonight, I'll get an extensive hand history and maybe try out PT, but here are two hands from a series of five that I've got sitting in my inbox:

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with K

, K

.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (19 SB) Q

, T

, K

(6 players)
SB checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (15.50 BB) 5

(6 players)
SB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, SB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds.

River: (19.50 BB) J

(4 players)
UTG+2 bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 23.50 BB

Results in white below:
UTG+2 has As Qs (straight, ace high).
MP1 has 3s 3h (one pair, threes).
MP2 has 2d Qd (one pair, queens).
Hero has Kh Kd (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 23.50 BB.

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K

, J

.
Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, [color-gray6666]1 fold[/color], MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (11 SB) A

, 9

, 2

(5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 8

(5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (12 BB) K

(4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Kd Jd (one pair, kings).
MP1 has Ac 3h (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP1 wins 14 BB.

Winner didn't even know it was a pie-eating contest

TylerK

02-22-2005, 01:57 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME

Posts: 1,791

Posting again in the limit forum...it makes me feel dirty, but I'll make an exception for close relatives.

Hand 1: Perfect

Hand 2: I wouldn't raise KJs from UTG. Flop bet is ok, but you have to think that with all the Ax players you're already screwed. Check/fold the turn.

TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol

koolmoe

02-22-2005, 02:07 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Drowning in prosperity

Posts: 1,279

Quote:

Originally Posted by TylerK

VP$IP and "% of flops seen" are not the same. If the majority of the 25% are from the BB, his VP$IP is 12.5% or less which, IMO, is way too tight.

At a full table you can only see 10% from the BB, and that's assuming you never have to call a raise. He's probably playing closer to a 20% VPIP, which is a little loose for full ring. I think the KJs raise he posted confirms this.

Fnord

02-22-2005, 02:12 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

I think the KJs raise he posted confirms this.

If you fold that you're way too tight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

koolmoe

02-22-2005, 03:55 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,279

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

I think the KJs raise he posted confirms this.

If you fold that you're way too tight.

I don't fold it...

edit: Just saw that it is .02/.04 - raise away!

Shotfrog

02-22-2005, 04:54 PM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Boston, MA

Posts: 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

I think the KJs raise he posted confirms this.

If you fold that you're way too tight.

I don't fold it...

edit: Just saw that it is .02/.04 - raise away!

I think my "raise away" attitude is what's torpedoing me. I build up a big pot, and then get nuked.

Winner didn't even know it was a pie-eating contest

Zinnsoldaten

02-22-2005, 05:06 PM Post subject: Re: Is there such a thing as too tight?

#11 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Sweden

Posts: 130

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotfrog

I've definitely folded what I'd consider marginal hands only to find that I would have won, like when I folded A2o and the flop contained two more 2s.

So by thinking like this you could potentially flop trips with any hand, but I don't think that the times you flop a winning hand will pay the cost you pay calling with every hand.

Pre-flop strategy is about the likeliness of having the best hand the highest amount of times.

What Shadows We Are, And What Shadows We Pursue

koolmoe

02-22-2005, 05:19 PM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Drowning in prosperity

Posts: 1,279

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotfrog

I think my "raise away" attitude is what's torpedoing me. I build up a big pot, and then get nuked.

More likely it's just variance.

Aside from that you might look at your postflop play. Your starting hand stats are fine for microlimits.

Don't be afraid to raise if worse hands will call you. Play for the long run and brush off the short term results.

Shotfrog

02-22-2005, 05:22 PM Post subject: Re: Is there such a thing as too tight?

#13 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Boston, MA

Posts: 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinnsoldaten

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotfrog

I've definitely folded what I'd consider marginal hands only to find that I would have won, like when I folded A2o and the flop contained two more 2s.

So by thinking like this you could potentially flop trips with any hand, but I don't think that the times you flop a winning hand will pay the cost you pay calling with every hand.

Pre-flop strategy is about the likeliness of having the best hand the highest amount of times.

Well, yeah. On consecutive hands I once flopped two pair first with 72o, and then with 62o, but obviously I wouldn't ever play those hands. But in the situation I was talking about here, I was in late position (one before CO, maybe), and hemmed and hawed for a bit about whether I should limp in. Then I said, "If it's good enough to call, it's good enough to raise," and folded.

Winner didn't even know it was a pie-eating contest

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