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Chopper

05-15-2009, 01:38 PM Post subject: thanks be to limit..

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

here is an example, imo, of how limit will help your NL game...

i will try to remember the best i can since i cant find the HH (it was on cake).

no HUD, so no real reads. just screwing around with the players at 4NL because i have noticed i am playing players and boards more than my cards these days. (i am not great, i am just noticing how much i have grown in the past year or so of LHE play)

i pick up J8s (spades) in the CO. i raise 3X. bb, about 70 bb stack, pops to 11X. i call. i call because i dont care about the level i am playing and i KNOW what i am looking for on this flop and that i am very unlikely to be dominated by anything other than AJ/JJ here. i can also possibly use position to steal this pot from him if he is the typical weak/passive i see at this level.

flop is 8d Ts 4s. (YAY, i smell a "move" coming.) he leads about 15X, leaving him about 40-50 bb left. of course, i use my FE and semi-bluff shove him with middle pair and my draw. i honestly thought he'd fold. he went in the tank and called with AK????? i hit the flush to put salt in the wound and he said...sarcastically..."nh, nice move." i said, "standard."

we got to chatting and he said, "way to bluff into the tightest player at the table, #$%^&!" i said, "i didnt notice you were tight, but that makes it an even better play....lol."

he says, "WTF, are you kidding?" i say, "nah, it just proves you rocks cant get off AK because you only pick up a hand once a week....

"

he says, "but, you do that with a flush draw?" i say, "no, i do that with position, FE, and a nit in the pot....jeez read a book, Doyle."

he says, "but you were behind." i say, "nope, had you crushed. reread the HH, college guy."

he later says, "i think i saw you on 4 tables of mine yesterday." i said, "orly? how'd i do?"

he says, "took two stacks off me then with the same plays." i said, "hehe...lky me." he says, "yeh."

it's because of limit play that i can grow the balls to make this play. this is a standard semibluff in a limit game. if its a raise in lhe, it cant be far off from a raise in NL. so, i pulled the trigger.

just thought some of you would enjoy that.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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Raoni_Poker

05-15-2009, 03:25 PM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Netherlands

Posts: 265

Nice hand (I would not have the guts to call there). If you did not hit your flush draw...would you try to steal it anyway? I mean, you were about 8.2:1 to hit a flush draw and you have a flop that probably missed your opponent. What would you do then?

I read once Daniel Negreanu talking about how limit HE improved his NL post-flop play. Some people begin playing NL and just cant extract value of huge hands because of poor post flop play.

Chopper

05-15-2009, 06:24 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i can pull this when i dont respect the level i play....like 4NL. i cant even as high as 25NL, though.....i get too weak/tight. but, if i had 125 BIs for 25NL, i would likely pull this move.

its all relative to your roll, imo.....and your tolerance of "risk of ruin."

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

LawDude

05-15-2009, 06:56 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

One interesting thing about the way I play poker is I honestly never think about the amount of money that is on the table in terms of "can I afford this?" or anything similar. It's just a stack of chips. Yes, I count up the pot to calculate my pot and implied odds, and yes I eyeball people's stacks, but I am not sitting there thinking "god that's a lot of money out there, should I really do this?".

If something is the right play in a 3/6 game, it's also the right play in a 30/60 game in the same circumstances against players with the same tendencies. (Of course, often the tendencies are different in a 30/60 game, but the opposite is true too-- if a bunch of high stakes players all sit down at a low stakes table and play their normal games, the correct plays are going to be the same whether you are playing for a $750 pot or a $75 pot.)

I think it's a big leak when people start thinking about the money on the table in those terms. It's the same thing that causes people to buy in with a shallow stack. They are more concerned with not losing than with winning.

Chopper

05-15-2009, 07:14 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i've posted about this before, but that is another reason i favor limit over NL. it is easier for me to think in terms of bb's instead of $'s. that little mental shift will make you play better. i can also pull bluffs or c/r's in limit easier and its much easier to call off that scary river card.

funny, though, that i wasnt thinking in terms of $$ on the hand i described. i was thinking in terms of bb's. that is why i was listing 3X and 11X because my mind has shifted over to that way of calculating. and, it clearly pointed out the FE i should have had in the hand. of course, micro station proved otherwise.....i had no FE...lol.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

daven

05-20-2009, 12:31 PM Post subject: Re: thanks be to limit..

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

we got to chatting

please don't do this.... fish do not need to be helped

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

Chopper

05-20-2009, 01:13 PM Post subject: Re: thanks be to limit..

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

we got to chatting

please don't do this.... fish do not need to be helped

i know. its a rarity for me to do anything. but, i cant help myself sometimes...

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

LawDude

05-20-2009, 08:08 PM Post subject: Re: thanks be to limit..

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

we got to chatting

please don't do this.... fish do not need to be helped

i know. its a rarity for me to do anything. but, i cant help myself sometimes...

I don't think it's a great idea to be pontificating about poker strategy during a game, because the other players don't like it so much.

That said, I do think the "don't educate the fish" routine is one of the silliest in poker. People come to this game, and they either get better at it or they leave it eventually (because they run out of money and decide it isn't worth it to continue).

If they get better at it, you aren't going to stop them from getting better at it because you don't tell them how to play better. And if you do tell them how to play better, the fish that is likely to follow your advice is the same fish that is likely to go get a good poker book or come to FTR or one of the other poker websites or whatever. And we gladly educate the fishes here.

In other words, "don't educate the fish" ascribes way too much power to the poker player. We couldn't educate the true fish even if we wanted to, and the players who really want to get better will learn whether or not we teach them.

It doesn't matter whether you educate the fish. It's a non-issue except that you shouldn't act like a know-it-all in front of everyone at a table.

Chopper

05-20-2009, 08:57 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

the way i see it is sort of between daven and lawdude. honestly, i dont think we educate fish....i dont think fish care to learn. and, i agree that fish that want to learn will do what it takes to get better.............i am a decent example of that........lol.

however, i also think that IF a fish wants to learn, he should do the research like we have done. we may not be educating the masses, but why help at all?? (like i said, its rare, but sometimes i cant help myself.)

giving free advice is just as foolish as giving free cards. (put that in your pipe and QUOTE it)

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

arborman

06-07-2009, 07:25 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 300

I don't educate the fish, but I love the people who do because it is pretty easy to pinpoint where they are in their poker development.

The guy who gets huffy and blows a gasket when some fish rivers a gutshot vs his tptk, and then starts poker talking at the table - you know the guy. He's the one who has played long enough to get a hand chart, maybe read a few forums (maybe), maybe even read SSHE. Chances are he is slightly profitable playing textbook tag poker in the micros.

Great. 9 times out of ten I know what he is raising with. I raise pf, he 3bets I have him down to maybe 7 possible hands (qq-aa, ak, maybe aq at best). If he raises pf and I 3bet, with him calling, it tells me he has at+, and possibly 99-JJ (he would cap with better, and would not raise with worse). So I know a rag flop is an easy c-bet for me, and I know if he raises a jxx flop he has aj or qq, or maybe kj. If he calls he is just peeling for his overs on the turn, and I can cbet him off a whiff. Best, of course, is when I have him dominated, because he knows he is supposed to be aggressive when he hits and he will throw his chips in for me.

Those guys are great because they also draw attention to themselves, away from me. It's best when they get caught up in conversation with a couple more people - you know they aren't making sexy plays while blabbing about basic poker.
I know that guy because I was him after I'd been playing for about 3-4 months. A few years later I just love having him at the table.

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