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LeFou
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04-13-2005, 08:53 PM
Post subject: TGC, and LHE in general I guess
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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I'm having Very mixed results at gamingclub, partly because of an annoying situation that I constantly run into with my game.
I think I call down too much. Example: I get nines in SB and call a raise, which I think is "correct". MP2 and the button are with me in a flop of AA3. This is not the answer to my prayers, but I'm getting ten-to-one (.25 bet at $2 something) so I hope for a nine.
Turn is another A. My nines don't look so bad any more, so I check-call. River's a little card, so I check-call it again, with a glimmer of hope that my boat is seaworthy. And opp shows the case A.
Don't take this as a bad beat story; it's a strategy question. In NL, you have a much better chance of figuring out if opps have plausible-but-unlikely cards. Does anyone have guidelines for this sort of thing in LHE?
Can't decide which is more frustrating: losing pots this way, or folding to these possibilities so often that I feel like a wuss. Feel free to just think aloud; my question is vague as hell.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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why are you calling? raise and find out if your 9s are good!
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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on the flop you are 22:1 to catch a 9 on the turn. that is horrible odds. but you should bet out from EP and see who call/raises. you may have the best hand. on the turn you absolutely have to bet your FULL HOUSE as the case A is extremely unlikely to be out there.
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
why are you calling? raise and find out if your 9s are good!
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And fold if re-raised, I presume?
That's definitely one of my weaknesses -- continued aggression in the face of resistance. It's unusual for me to reraise without what I think is a lock.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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call down against very aggressive players
fold against most typical players on the turn.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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Bet out on the flop if he has an ace he will most likely raise. then you can muck without wasting the bets on the turn and river
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Nehmer
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
Bet out on the flop if he has an ace he will most likely raise. then you can muck without wasting the bets on the turn and river
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This is a very poor plan for finding out where you are at in the hand is basically the same as just throwing away a small bet on the flop. Maybe it isn't the same at low-limits, but I find that if somebody raises preflop and I bet into them on the flop, they raise almost every single time regardless of what they have(unless they flop a super strong hand in which case they wait to raise the turn). I personally would try for a check raise on the flop in this situation as I find that is a much better indicator of what your opponent has. Though vs somebody that doesn't raise often preflop(maybe less than 5%), I probably just muck my 9s as he almost certainly has an Ace or a higher pair.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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Yes checkraise and open yourself up to a 4 bet..... awsome
then when he calls the c/r you are still out of position the rest of the hand. What are you going to do, bet into him the rest of the hand????
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
on the flop you are 22:1 to catch a 9 on the turn. that is horrible odds. but you should bet out from EP and see who call/raises. you may have the best hand. on the turn you absolutely have to bet your FULL HOUSE as the case A is extremely unlikely to be out there.
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"Limited" as they are, there are implied odds in limit, esp. on the flop. I'm pretty sure I'll get an extra $2 in there if i do hit, as I'm first-to-act on the big bet rounds. With >2 opps it's a pretty clear laydown, as someone's going to have that ace or better pair.
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Nehmer
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
Yes checkraise and open yourself up to a 4 bet..... awsome
then when he calls the c/r you are still out of position the rest of the hand. What are you going to do, bet into him the rest of the hand????
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well, if you get raised back you can be much more positive you are beat than if you just bet out on the flop and raised. If you don't get raised back, you can be pretty sure he doesn't have that ace and then yes, you do bet into him the rest of the hand. Also, as I said before, vs a lot of preflop raisers, I just fold this hand postflop. Also, vs a lot of preflop callers, I just plain fold postflop(though in this situation he said it was only 2 others). I just so seldom see people that raised preflop not raise on the flop that it is worthless to bet out unless you are wanting to 3-bet them. I always laugh to myself when I raise preflop and somebody bets out on the flop and then folds to my raise, it just seems like a ridiculous play.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nehmer
I always laugh to myself when I raise preflop and somebody bets out on the flop and then folds to my raise, it just seems like a ridiculous play.
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I don't think this is a ridiculous play. Against TAP'ers, you can sometimes induce a fold if a scary flop hits. Say, if the guy raises with 99, and the flop comes QQK, with two suited, betting out can sometimes take this down. Now, if you were showing aggression all day, and the guy did that I'm laugh too!
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
Bet out on the flop if he has an ace he will most likely raise. then you can muck without wasting the bets on the turn and river
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In low limit games I bet out on the flop, many opponents would just call and try to pop me on the turn. If you do get this smooth call, do you check the turn for sure? Bad position makes it near impossible to play the player in this situation.
Thus, I think a C/R would be a good way to scare a non-A away. Then you've only spend 2 BB to know where you are. In the former scenario of betting out, if you get smooth called, you are still blind. You'll have to check the turn, and many alert players would bet out and try to take it from you.
So, by c/r'ing you are investing 2 small bets to win 7 (with two callers) if there's perhaps a 30% chance he has an A, that seems pretty good to me. If you are re-raised to muck it , of course.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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Quote:
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In low limit games I bet out on the flop, many opponents would just call and try to pop me on the turn. If you do get this smooth call, do you check the turn for sure? Bad position makes it near impossible to play the player in this situation.
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Yes if they call you most of the time they are waiting for the turn to raise.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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Straight out of HPFAP "One reason ot bet slightly mediocre hands rather than check raise is that a check raise puts too much money in the pot and may get your opponent psychologically involved in the hand. He will often call your raise with little and you wont know whether he's slowplaying or just calling calling all the way with a better hand. The mere fact that he calls when you c/r on the flop doesnt necessarily suggest that you might not be able to win it with a bet on fourth street. But it does make the play of your hand much more expensive. So one extra advantage of leading is that it increases your chance of winning right on the flop" pg 200
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Nehmer
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
Straight out of HPFAP "One reason ot bet slightly mediocre hands rather than check raise is that a check raise puts too much money in the pot and may get your opponent psychologically involved in the hand. He will often call your raise with little and you wont know whether he's slowplaying or just calling calling all the way with a better hand. The mere fact that he calls when you c/r on the flop doesnt necessarily suggest that you might not be able to win it with a bet on fourth street. But it does make the play of your hand much more expensive. So one extra advantage of leading is that it increases your chance of winning right on the flop" pg 200 |
I will agree with that statement in any hand that was not raised preflop, but when somebody does raise preflop, it is my experience that they will raise postflop if you bet into them at least 80% of the time regardless of what they have(the other 20% is mostly people waiting to raise the turn with only a few folds thrown in). This does come from mostly the 2/4 and 3/6 party game so it might be different at lower limits or on other sites. But for those games at least, I think it is definately a very poor play to bet the flop with the intention of folding to a raise.
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m3laNcholy
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 232
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For the particular example, turn comes the 3rd ace.
Consider this: what hands could he raise with pre-flop that dont contain an ace? KK through TT and an unlikely KQ. You can only beat KQ. I say lay it down.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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Quote:
For the particular example, turn comes the 3rd ace.
Consider this: what hands could he raise with pre-flop that dont contain an ace? KK through TT and an unlikely KQ. You can only beat KQ. I say lay it down.
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You think only kk-tt will raise pre flop? What about j10 qj, kj, q10, k10,, 22-99, and any other hand that might steal?
Quote:
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I will agree with that statement in any hand that was not raised preflop, but when somebody does raise preflop, it is my experience that they will raise postflop if you bet into them at least 80% of the time regardless of what they have(the other 20% is mostly people waiting to raise the turn with only a few folds thrown in). This does come from mostly the 2/4 and 3/6 party game so it might be different at lower limits or on other sites. But for those games at least, I think it is definately a very poor play to bet the flop with the intention of folding to a raise.
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I agree, betting and then auto folding ot a raise is a poor play. Any player with a brain would raise you even with nothing after noticing this. 80% of the time they do not raise your bet, even in the 2/4 pp game. The higher the limit the more likely they are to raise. the lower limits they are more likely to call the flop and raise or fold the turn (slow play). An A A flop to me is pretty good for 99, i will be able to sniff out an ace easily and get away from my hand. All of my experience comes from the UB 2/4 game ( which plays more like the party 3/6 and 5/10) the party 2/4, 3/6 and 5/10 games, so I wouldnt know about lower limits. I would suspect more slow playing at the lower limits. Either way I think leading the flop is much more correct than a c/r.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
Bet out on the flop if he has an ace he will most likely raise. then you can muck without wasting the bets on the turn and river
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Trip Aces call the flop like 90% of the time in my experience. Weaker hands (pairs, draws) played by aware players will often raise.
If the action is you bet, raise and a cold call (by all but the WORST calling stations), it's a safe fold (unless you have implied odds to spike) because the cold caller has the Ace and wants to keep you around (or fail that the raiser might actually have it, either way you're screwed often enough.) Also, multiple calls including post-flop tight player(s) might be a good sign to slow down. AAx just isn't usually a flop players (with any sort of clue, consider your game texture) are often going to want to draw against.
Bottom line is to expect the guy(s) with the Ace to try to get cute with what he considers to be a lock hand. Then disappoint him by taking free cards, cheap showdowns or making a laydown.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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Quote:
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Yes if they call you most of the time they are waiting for the turn to raise.
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Agreeded. This is a touchy issue and is more read dependent. I just dont think a c/r is the correct play.
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Nehmer
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
I agree, betting and then auto folding ot a raise is a poor play. Any player with a brain would raise you even with nothing after noticing this.
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Then we are in complete agreement and you just took back what you said to start this debate 
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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No I said If I bet out and was raised, I would dump my hand on the turn most of the time. Players notice when you dump hands for 1 extra bet and will start making plays on you. 
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