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Tens on a paired board

  
 
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Hermann the Lombard
Old 10-08-2007, 05:07 AM     Post subject: Tens on a paired board #1 (permalink)  
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Hermann the Lombard
PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T, Q.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (5.40 SB) 3, T, 3 (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, Button folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.20 BB) 8 (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

River: (8.20 BB) 8 (2 players)
Hero...

UTG+1 is a (57/5.7/1.06). Saw him call the bottom end of KQJT board with J9o. No other notes. I'm not sure about the turn call either. My thoughts in white:
Flop: with no PFR I'm probably ahead right now. 2 checks to me so no c/r even if I wanted one...and I don't. If it was 1 bet to me I would raise to try to knock out some draws.
Turn: 8 doesn't change anything so I bet, the raise tells me that he has *something.* He's not slowplaying a flush draw. I could 3-bet and fold to a cap, seems like overkill.
River: second 8 might--might--help by counterfeiting a lower pair. The odds of that are so small that I might as well play the lottery. Looks like c/c is the way to go.
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DrivingDog
Old 10-08-2007, 08:57 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Villian prolly has something like A3 or T8, but a lot of guys will have JT or worse often enough to make calling down correct, imo. I might fold the turn though if i knew villian would not raise without AT or better.

8 on the river is a blank inasmuch as it doesn't change the fact that you are still either ahead or behind. Counterfeiting a lower pair? I don't get that - there is no lower pair that you were ahead of on the turn that you wouldn't still be ahead of on the river. Any 3 has filled up as has T8. 77. 66 etc. was behind on the turn and is still behind.

Counterfeiting would be if the flop came T32 and he had 32. Then 8 on turn and river came you would have Ts and 8s and he'd have 8s and 3s.

Read on UTG is fine but doesn't help you much against MP...
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sinky
Old 10-08-2007, 11:39 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
UTG+1 is a (57/5.7/1.06).
You didn't give us any information on the guys behind you, but I would be raising pre-flop against this opponent a lot.
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pokerfanatic
Old 10-08-2007, 12:20 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinky
Quote:
UTG+1 is a (57/5.7/1.06).
You didn't give us any information on the guys behind you, but I would be raising pre-flop against this opponent a lot.
iso raise however this is 0.05/0.10 how often does this actually work and get you isolated with the donkey?

I'm little confused as why you gave us stats for UTG+1 when it's MP2 that is of a concern here...

with that said. MP2 limped PF, basicly tells you nothing other then he could have almost anything.
I fell he has some combination of the following, 3x, or T8.
(i thought he might have had 8x in spades but that went out the window on the river with the 8s), I don't know his TAF so i have to ask if he would ru nthis line with a FD, but i doubt it.
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Hermann the Lombard
Old 10-08-2007, 05:25 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Hermann the Lombard
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
[iso raise however this is 0.05/0.10 how often does this actually work and get you isolated with the donkey?

I'm little confused as why you gave us stats for UTG+1 when it's MP2 that is of a concern here...
On the first one, a couple of times in that session I *was* able to raise and isolate, somewhat to my surprise.

On the second one, I offer two possibilities (1) I had no stats on MP2 or (2) it was one o'clock in the morning and I was confused. I'll go with the second one since the white type didn't happen either.
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pokerfanatic
Old 10-08-2007, 11:54 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermann the Lombard
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
[iso raise however this is 0.05/0.10 how often does this actually work and get you isolated with the donkey?

I'm little confused as why you gave us stats for UTG+1 when it's MP2 that is of a concern here...
On the first one, a couple of times in that session I *was* able to raise and isolate, somewhat to my surprise.

On the second one, I offer two possibilities (1) I had no stats on MP2 or (2) it was one o'clock in the morning and I was confused. I'll go with the second one since the white type didn't happen either.
haha well it looks like MP2 has you crushed i c/f
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Fnord
Old 10-09-2007, 01:40 AM #7 (permalink)  
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I fold the turn without a compelling reason to look this guy up. In other words, sometimes I look these up, but I usually fold.
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Hermann the Lombard
Old 10-09-2007, 02:35 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Hermann the Lombard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermann the Lombard
On the second one, I offer two possibilities (1) I had no stats on MP2 or (2) it was one o'clock in the morning and I was confused. I'll go with the second one since the white type didn't happen either.
Let's DEFINITELY go with the second one. Those stats are MP2 after all. And yes, MP2 had me crushed.
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DrivingDog
Old 10-09-2007, 12:29 PM #9 (permalink)  
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yeah if his af is 1.06 he's not raising the turn without at least AT. I'm a foldin' the turn too then.
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Jibalob
Old 10-09-2007, 01:22 PM #10 (permalink)  
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If mp2 is a typical donk/fish I'm check/calling the river.

The one thing I've noticed about the big fish at my current stakes is that they feel obliged to bluff every paired board (even the ones with <1 AF). They also seem to believe that because there is a board pair their low pocket pair is good.

Against any thinking player I fold the turn raise unless they've been bullying me out of pots all night.
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Hermann the Lombard
Old 10-09-2007, 01:59 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Hermann the Lombard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibalob
If mp2 is a typical donk/fish I'm check/calling the river.

Against any thinking player I fold the turn raise unless they've been bullying me out of pots all night.
Yeah, if he called I think the odds are that he's crying (though he doesn't know it). Unfortunately the raise is another matter with that AF.

You know what happens the first time you call them down because you're tired of being bullied...
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