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elipsesjeff
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01-14-2005, 12:13 AM
Post subject: ...teaches you to steal my blind, mr PokerNinja
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#1 (permalink)
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***** Hand History for Game 1432258279 *****
$2/$4 Hold'em - Thursday, January 13, 19:41:35 EDT 2005
Table Table 15835 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 9: CodeRedRulez ( $143.5 )
Seat 10: MrRaggz ( $159 )
Seat 2: bobo16 ( $30 )
Seat 4: vcptmorganv ( $203 )
Seat 7: pull4gamecck ( $88 )
Seat 5: RiGoRd ( $127 )
Seat 6: DsWifey44 ( $95 )
Seat 1: Znumber202 ( $118.5 )
Seat 8: Pokerninja_ ( $88 )
Seat 3: krizazy ( $40 )
Pokerninja_ posts small blind [$1].
CodeRedRulez posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to CodeRedRulez [ 2c Jd ]
MrRaggz folds.
Znumber202 folds.
krizazy folds.
vcptmorganv folds.
RiGoRd folds.
DsWifey44 folds.
pull4gamecck folds.
Pokerninja_ raises [$3].
CodeRedRulez calls [$2].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, 8s, Js ]
Pokerninja_ bets [$2].
CodeRedRulez calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Td ]
Pokerninja_ bets [$4].
CodeRedRulez calls [$4].
** Dealing River ** [ Jc ]
Pokerninja_ bets [$4].
CodeRedRulez raises [$8].
Pokerninja_ calls [$4].
CodeRedRulez shows [ 2c, Jd ] three of a kind, jacks.
Pokerninja_ doesn't show [ As, Ah ] two pairs, aces and jacks.
CodeRedRulez wins $34.5 from the main pot with three of a kind, jacks.
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gabe
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it always sucks when you try to defend your blind with mediocre cards, then they turn over AA. luckily, the river treated you well.
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jbmagic
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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little confuse
according to SSH chart , with those starting cards if you have Big blinds and someone raise in front of you, you suppose to fold.
what the reason not to fold?
thanks
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gabe
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the chart does say that, but things are a little different when it is folded all the way to the small blind. this looks like he is trying to steal the big blind, which means it is very likely his cards aren't as good as the ones he would raise with under normal circumstances.
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jbmagic
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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this play really took some guts by Jeff to keep calling after each SB bet..
i am surprise my SB, that he didnt check raise...
i wonder if Jeff will call the reraise with those cards he had
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
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How is he trying to steal ur blind, i want peoole in the pot with AA, he was raising to protect his hand. You already know this.
Nice catch on the river though.
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gabe
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it looks like a blind steal from his perspective, but obviously it was a value bet
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jbmagic
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gabriel
it looks like a blind steal from his perspective, but obviously it was a value bet
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would of it been more better if small blind check raise?
i dont think jeff plays it all the way to the river
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gabe
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AA is the best hand. it is more likely to win than any other hand so he just needed to bet.
jeff called down because he flopped a pair and there was a good chance the other guy had nothing. most of the time you would not call a raise with such a hand. this is a special case.
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Fnord
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Fold pre-flop. Just about any hand with a deuce or trey sucks heads-up.
Pop the flop or turn for value. A worse hand might give up by the river and you need to protect what is very likely the best hand.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Fold pre-flop. Just about any hand with a deuce or trey sucks heads-up.
Pop the flop or turn for value. A worse hand might give up by the river and you need to protect what is very likely the best hand.
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what's the crappiest hand you will protect your blind with?
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
what's the crappiest hand you will protect your blind with?
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Who's stealing and from where?
An aggro player from the SB and I'll go with 64s.
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jbmagic
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Fold pre-flop. Just about any hand with a deuce or trey sucks heads-up.
Pop the flop or turn for value. A worse hand might give up by the river and you need to protect what is very likely the best hand.
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what's the crappiest hand you will protect your blind with? |
KJs
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jbmagic
KJs
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There is an open seat for you to my left...
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Sed
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Full House
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Do you defend in both the sb and bb?
- sed
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No fear, go deep or go home!
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jbmagic
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jbmagic
KJs
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There is an open seat for you to my left... |
according to SSH that what it shows to play for the crapiest hand for Big blind
KJs
anything lower you fold , unless its just check
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Fnord
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In SSH games, no one has a chance to steal often enough for it to be worth defending with a wide range...
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stevedonel
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jbmagic
according to SSH that what it shows to play for the crapiest hand for Big blind
KJs
anything lower you fold , unless its just check |
SSH was written to teach descent players how to play ABC poker, so they could get the maximum winnings while playing against bad players at lower limits. Fnord is a bit more advanced than most players, so he is able to play weaker hands properly. Play long enough and you will eventually learn to play hands not taught in books; I'm still working on it myself.
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Is that guy still part of the forum??
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elipsesjeff
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I'm not going to advocate playing bad hands, but i will call ANYTHING if i'm in the BB and its an obvious steal...
Tell me this wasn't an obvious steal? come on...
My Blind defense numbers are great, HEPFAP says you have to call or raise a certain amount of the time to not make it profitable for the button to steal.
I'll bring the numbers back later.
I will only fold the worst possible hands.....
and even a 2 will win 40% of the time HU Fnord.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
I will only fold the worst possible hands.....
and even a 2 will win 40% of the time HU Fnord.
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J2o is one of the worst possible hands.
See the shorthanded section of HEFAP. S&M talk about the special problems hands with a 2 or 3 in them have HU.
You should be thinking deeper than all-in value. AK vs JJ is a coin-flip, but JJ will win more money than its all-in edge because it knows better when it's ahead, play more aggressivly and trap AK with a pretty good second best hand.
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rorix
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Quote:
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, 8s, Js ]
Pokerninja_ bets [$2].
CodeRedRulez calls [$2].
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Why are you calling? Look at the flop! Calling is just inviting trouble. If you have the best of it, raise!
Quote:
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Fold pre-flop. Just about any hand with a deuce or trey sucks heads-up.
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Ridiculous. Firstly, it doesn't suck so bad that it's not worth calling. The only trouble that arises is when people call out of the bb with something like K4o and don't know how to play it on a 47T flop. People like this shouldn't play out of the blinds. Secondly, why are you even expecting the hand to go to a showdown?
This thread is full of people that refer to books without understanding the reasons behind the advice.
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Fnord
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Nice first post.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rorix
Why are you calling? Look at the flop! Calling is just inviting trouble. If you have the best of it, raise!
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Agreed, however sometimes waiting for the turn has merit. It's heads-up...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rorix
Ridiculous. Firstly, it doesn't suck so bad that it's not worth calling. The only trouble that arises is when people call out of the bb with something like K4o and don't know how to play it on a 47T flop. People like this shouldn't play out of the blinds.
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Calling here if the SB isn't the type to steal and/or has a clue how to play post-flop isn't worth your time. Absent a read I would let this go.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rorix
Secondly, why are you even expecting the hand to go to a showdown?
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Because this is the Party 2/4 game... I would expect Ax, Kx and any pocket pair to go to showdown in this spot no matter how hard you mash the bet/raise button.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rorix
This thread is full of people that refer to books without understanding the reasons behind the advice.
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Care to back that comment up?
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rorix
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 58
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Quote:
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Calling here if the SB isn't the type to steal and/or has a clue how to play post-flop isn't worth your time. Absent a read I would let this go.
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True, I assumed because it was read as a blind steal that he was raising flop sb button etc. often.
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Because this is the Party 2/4 game... I would expect Ax, Kx and any pocket pair to go to showdown in this spot no matter how hard you mash the bet/raise button.
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Don't have any experience on Party but if some guy is going to call you down with hi card king, then see the flop and if you hit your J or 2 you're gonna be raking in some chips.
Quote:
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Care to back that comment up?
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Well, not 'full of' :P but there certainly are some.
e.g.
Quote:
according to SSH that what it shows to play for the crapiest hand for Big blind
KJs
anything lower you fold , unless its just check
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I'm not even sure what SSH is but anyone that takes (author of SSH)'s advice without understanding the reasons behind that advice will never be able to adapt to the various situations of a poker table. Surely (author) wasn't referring to SB raising your blind, no callers in the pot and suggesting that KJs is only borderline callable!
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My Blind defense numbers are great, HEPFAP says you have to call or raise a certain amount of the time to not make it profitable for the button to steal.
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Again, just because HEPFAP says something doesn't mean you should just do it. Horrible post flop players will certainly not discourage their opponents from raising their blinds simply by calling!
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elipsesjeff
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
See the shorthanded section of HEFAP. S&M talk about the special problems hands with a 2 or 3 in them have HU. |
I've read it, but most blind steal attempts any pair will win, even high card.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
You should be thinking deeper than all-in value. AK vs JJ is a coin-flip, but JJ will win more money than its all-in edge because it knows better when it's ahead, play more aggressivly and trap AK with a pretty good second best hand.
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True, but I also know when i'm behind with this hand to when I'm not behind. Most blind steal defenses i throw away if an Ace or King hits and I dont have one. I also will throw away if i hit no pair.
Moving on...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rorix
Why are you calling? Look at the flop! Calling is just inviting trouble. If you have the best of it, raise!
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Ah, you see, if i raise the flop then he folds if he has nothing. But if I check call him down, he continues to try and buy the pot and is just forced to put more money in. Also, when i do lose I dont lose as much holding this suck-of-a-hand. Plus, this check-calling has to do wonders in loosening up that TAG Image....
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rorix
Ridiculous. Firstly, it doesn't suck so bad that it's not worth calling. The only trouble that arises is when people call out of the bb with something like K4o and don't know how to play it on a 47T flop. People like this shouldn't play out of the blinds. Secondly, why are you even expecting the hand to go to a showdown?
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Firstly, this hand is a pretty suck-of-a-hand, and I would have thrown it away if there was ONE other person in the pot to take the burdon off the blind stealer. But I refuse to give up my BB for free, especially when the guy raising could have just as $hitty cards as me.
Secondly, I WANT this hand to go to showdown, because I am more than confident that this jackass doesnt have Jack $hit, and I am more than willing to take his money.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rorix
This thread is full of people that refer to books without understanding the reasons behind the advice.
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Fnord was right, this was a good first post until this line screwed it up. I would have a hard time telling people that they dont understand the concepts in SSH and HEPFAP (especially those such as myself, fnord, and hypermegachi) when you don't know what SSH is.
No hard feelings here...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rorix
True, I assumed because it was read as a blind steal that he was raising flop sb button etc. often.
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Correct, unless its a blind steal, I don't always call from the BB with hands as good as J2o all the time, only when Mike, Fnord, or Hyper raise, because i know they'll pay me off.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rorix
Don't have any experience on Party but if some guy is going to call you down with hi card king, then see the flop and if you hit your J or 2 you're gonna be raking in some chips.
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Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Especially when the the fish have 'pokerninja' in their name....how can anyone take this seriously?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rorix
Again, just because HEPFAP says something doesn't mean you should just do it. Horrible post flop players will certainly not discourage their opponents from raising their blinds simply by calling! |
Maybe because HEPFAP doesnt say something makes that something to do? How else can you explain Rippy's success in NL by playing his 74o and such? Any two cards CAN win, and when you have the edge on your opponent you can play them.
He raised his hand, that either means he's on a blind steal or he really does have a hand. First off, I have the advantage here, he doesnt know what I have, I also have the option of folding if I dont hit, and if he is on a blind steal he's worried of what I have, so he'll play passively if I show aggression.
Like I said earlier, playing against the grain always isn't profitable, but choosing your moments can make you profits as well as improve your image. I think thats what Rippy has been trying to explain all along, and I believe it does work in LHE too, somewhat.
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elipsesjeff
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jbmagic
little confuse
according to SSH chart , with those starting cards if you have Big blinds and someone raise in front of you, you suppose to fold.
what the reason not to fold?
thanks |
Dont get confused, dont make this call unless you really KNOW what you were doing. Continue to play by SSH and you'll continue to do just fine.
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elipsesjeff
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sed
Do you defend in both the sb and bb?
- sed
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Depends on who is after you, your cards, etc. in the SB i would fold this hand because BB could still call.
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elipsesjeff
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Here is a question for you fnord:
Do you attempt a blind steal with this hand?
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Do you attempt a blind steal with this hand?
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Almost never. Not quite, but getting towards any 2 territory to raise with this one. Very unlikely I would steal with it from the SB.
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rorix
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Quote:
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Ah, you see, if i raise the flop then he folds if he has nothing. But if I check call him down, he continues to try and buy the pot and is just forced to put more money in. Also, when i do lose I dont lose as much holding this suck-of-a-hand. Plus, this check-calling has to do wonders in loosening up that TAG Image....
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Your hand isn't very strong in this situation. You have top pair worst kicker on a 3 spade board with no spades. Even if you think you're j2o will most likely be good when it comes to the showdown, reraising on the turn is better than the river imo as you may get him to lead out again on the river.
Quote:
Firstly, this hand is a pretty suck-of-a-hand, and I would have thrown it away if there was ONE other person in the pot to take the burdon off the blind stealer. But I refuse to give up my BB for free, especially when the guy raising could have just as $hitty cards as me.
Secondly, I WANT this hand to go to showdown, because I am more than confident that this jackass doesnt have Jack $hit, and I am more than willing to take his money.
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Yeah I was talking about the preflop call, where Fnord felt you should fold because of j2os low showdown quality.
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Fnord was right, this was a good first post until this line screwed it up. I would have a hard time telling people that they dont understand the concepts in SSH and HEPFAP (especially those such as myself, fnord, and hypermegachi) when you don't know what SSH is.
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Apologies, quoting of books is a bit of a pet peeve of mine and I tend to assume that people quote rather than explain. My mistake.
Anyway I agreed with your preflop play.
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gabe
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by rorix
Apologies, quoting of books is a bit of a pet peeve of mine and I tend to assume that people quote rather than explain. My mistake.
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How is that a pet peeve? You don't like people justifying their arguments?
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rorix
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Because books encourage rigidity in poker thinking which really limits your ability.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by rorix
Yeah I was talking about the preflop call, where Fnord felt you should fold because of j2os low showdown quality.
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No, because most hands with 2s and 3s don't play well in these situations.
As I said, JJ only has slightly better showdown/all-in/whatever value than AK, but JJ plays better.
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rorix
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Sure, but what are you putting this guy on?
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gabe
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you can't really put an agressive player on anything when he is blind stealing
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
you can't really put an agressive player on anything when he is blind stealing
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Is he an aggro player?
Ok, now lets talk about pet peeves. I REALLY HATE the term "put someone on a hand." It's silly and suggests that our opponents are either bot-like predictable or we have x-ray glasses. Neither are true. Most opponents are erraticly bad, even the tight ones. Put him on a range of hands given the action and react.
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rorix
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 58
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
you can't really put an agressive player on anything when he is blind stealing
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Exactly!
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by rorix
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
you can't really put an agressive player on anything when he is blind stealing
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Exactly! |
Does he steal with any 2, a really aggro range of the top 75%, aggro/good range of 60% or something closer to a TAggy range of 40%?
Even given that, we still must consider position and the desire to make a hand strong enough to play back with legit strength (even if we plan to play back as a bluff on occasion.) Some hands won't ever really make much of anything and can be mucked.
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elipsesjeff
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I'm glad this post stirred a lot of thought, but mainly, you can't beat a bluff with another bluff.
You can't beat a blind steal without a made hand, or at least a semi made hand. I called with J2o because I dont like giving up my blind. I didn't call because it was a 'good enough hand to play HU.' This hand blows, HU or not. The only way I win if I hit the flop, if I dont hit I lose. My edge (even if its small) comes into play that if I don't hit the flop, I have the option of folding or continue in the hand.
The discussion shouldn't be what hands are good to play against a good blind steal, but what hands will you allow yourself to be blind stealed against?
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
The discussion shouldn't be what hands are good to play against a good blind steal, but what hands will you allow yourself to be blind stealed against?
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I think that's a bad way of thinking about it. A better quesiton is "what hands can I defend with against this player that have at least a break-even expectation." The reason I say break-even and not profitable is that there is a larger goal of making blind stealing against us difficult enough to prevent him from stealing profitably with a wide(r) range. Also, consider that the whole exercise is a negative sum game.
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rorix
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
I'm glad this post stirred a lot of thought, but mainly, you can't beat a bluff with another bluff.
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I disagree. Anyone who will never lay down a bluff is just bad and you'll making a killing from them long run. You can never beat a bluff by simply calling them down though. You've got to take the initiative. You've got to be aggressive. You can't just let the guy walk all over you and hope when the cards are face up that your junk will outrank his junk.
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You can't beat a blind steal without a made hand, or at least a semi made hand.
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This is certainly not true, I've got many an opponent to lay down a blind steal on 2/4 all the way up to 30/60. The key is to be aggressive. Don't be self centered and worry about your cards, worry about how much your opponents cards are worth to them.
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I called with J2o because I dont like giving up my blind.
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This is a horrible attitude! The only reason to do any poker action is that it has long run positive expectation. If you're trying to fight this hand to discourage him from future steals then sure, if that's profitable, and I guess this is what you might mean. But it comes across as more of an ego thing rather than a monetary one.
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The discussion shouldn't be what hands are good to play against a good blind steal, but what hands will you allow yourself to be blind stealed against?
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That's a reasonable question, but poker is a betting contest. Don't just focus on your own holdings.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Originally Posted by rorix
I disagree. Anyone who will never lay down a bluff is just bad and you'll making a killing from them long run. You can never beat a bluff by simply calling them down though. You've got to take the initiative. You've got to be aggressive. You can't just let the guy walk all over you and hope when the cards are face up that your junk will outrank his junk.
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I'm not saying to not bluff, i'm saying if you know a guy is bluffing, if you cant beat Ace/King high, you shouldnt be playing.
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Originally Posted by rorix
This is certainly not true, I've got many an opponent to lay down a blind steal on 2/4 all the way up to 30/60. The key is to be aggressive. Don't be self centered and worry about your cards, worry about how much your opponents cards are worth to them.
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I've gotten opponents to fold their blind steals, especially the ones who got caught red handed. The obvious check on the turn usually gives it away. I'm not overly aggressive with Top pair no kicker, a 1-suited board, with another player who has shown aggression. Blind stealing is not really an art, neither is defending. You just have to know when to call, raise, or fold. In this hand if i raised yes, the guy would have called me down, only because he actually had a hand. What I want is that dumbass blind stealing me with 85o to spend more money on a hand he can't win.
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Originally Posted by rorix
This is a horrible attitude! The only reason to do any poker action is that it has long run positive expectation. If you're trying to fight this hand to discourage him from future steals then sure, if that's profitable, and I guess this is what you might mean. But it comes across as more of an ego thing rather than a monetary one.
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I won't deny this.
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Originally Posted by rorix
That's a reasonable question, but poker is a betting contest. Don't just focus on your own holdings.
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I'm focusing on my own holdings when quad tabling 2/4 and i'm up against an obvious blind steal. At this level the only reads i have are from Gametime+ so I pretty much just play my cards. 3/6 I dont do as much multitabling and I agree, but very rarely do I see it..
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rorix
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 58
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
I'm not saying to not bluff, i'm saying if you know a guy is bluffing, if you cant beat Ace/King high, you shouldnt be playing.
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So what you're saying is that he's not going to lay downa strong nopair holding rather than an actual stone cold bluff.
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Blind stealing is not really an art, neither is defending.
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I'd disagree, playing from the blinds is probably the most important part of hold'em. But anyway...
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In this hand if i raised yes, the guy would have called me down, only because he actually had a hand. What I want is that dumbass blind stealing me with 85o to spend more money on a hand he can't win.
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So you're only going to call if you hit top pair? The odds of hitting one of your cards on the flop are roughly 20%, even if we assume if you hit it will be toppair. Or if you're just going to play any pair, roughly 40% to hit a pair, which makes raising your blind a nobrainer if you play this predictably.
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I'm focusing on my own holdings when quad tabling 2/4 and i'm up against an obvious blind steal. At this level the only reads i have are from Gametime+ so I pretty much just play my cards. 3/6 I dont do as much multitabling and I agree, but very rarely do I see it..
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Yeah multitabling does make it harder to read players but thankfully the majority of internet players are so predictable that you don't even need to watch them to figure out what they're holding. You've already read him as a blind steal (unfortunately holding AA) so you've already done part of it, and the majority of internet players will only raise late with a decent hand at worse and it's pretty easy to put them on the back foot I've found. Sure, sometimes they hit and will call you down and you lose more than you would have had you not got involved in a betting contest but overall I've found it quite profitable.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by rorix
I'd disagree, playing from the blinds is probably the most important part of hold'em. But anyway...
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you must be kidding.
i am beginning to think you are just posting this stuff to get on everyone's nerves.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
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Originally Posted by rorix
I'd disagree, playing from the blinds is probably the most important part of hold'em. But anyway...
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you must be kidding.
i am beginning to think you are just posting this stuff to get on everyone's nerves. |
Once you get past the silly loose games, he's at least in the ballpark.
I'm pleasantly surprised by the increasing quality of this guy's posts. At first I thought he was a twerp...
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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playing blind steals and blind defense well definitely adds that 0.1BB/100 to your win rate :P
of course i have no idea what the exact figure is but i'm sure it's positive in the long run
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
playing blind steals and blind defense well definitely adds that 0.1BB/100 to your win rate :P
of course i have no idea what the exact figure is but i'm sure it's positive in the long run
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You're way under-estimating the impact in any game that's not silly loose.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
playing blind steals and blind defense well definitely adds that 0.1BB/100 to your win rate :P
of course i have no idea what the exact figure is but i'm sure it's positive in the long run
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You're way under-estimating the impact in any game that's not silly loose. |
i think the only time i've ever played in a really tight game was that night i played with you, elipsesjeff, mike4066. probably blind steal/defense happened every third hand!
what can i say, i got my butt kicked 
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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A lot of Party 3/6 games worth playing look something like this:
2 TAggs
2 Loose/bad players (40%+ VP$IP)
3-4 Semi-aware players (~20% VP$IP with various holes in their game)
2 Rocks
With a game texture like that, blinds become very relivant.
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rorix
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 58
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I'm pleasantly surprised by the increasing quality of this guy's posts. At first I thought he was a twerp...
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luv ya too babe
Blinds are the only place where every poker player loses money.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by rorix
So what you're saying is that he's not going to lay downa strong nopair holding rather than an actual stone cold bluff.
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Well, if you raise back at him he is more likely to fold his crap hand, but if you check to him he's more likely to bet with his crap hand. And even with Ace high he's more likely call down than with 85o or other random hand. Smart, aggressive players will bet if checked around the table no matter what their hand is; too smart for their own good sometimes. To end this side of the discussion, i'd prefer to call down with junk made-hands than be overtly aggressive and overvalue my own hand. I do think its incorrect to undervalue a hand, and with a hand such as AQ heads up I would be more willing to raise; theres a better chance he has me beat and I can get him to fold.
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Originally Posted by rorix
I'd disagree, playing from the blinds is probably the most important part of hold'em. But anyway...
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I wouldn't go that far in saying its the most important part, but its pretty important at the higher stakes. But when it comes down to it Blind Defense isn't any much harder than Blind Stealing. Reads have a lot to do with it but most of the time the players are too timid and afraid of losing. I'm not afraid of losing, especially when I know I was pwned from the beginning.
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Originally Posted by rorix
So you're only going to call if you hit top pair? The odds of hitting one of your cards on the flop are roughly 20%, even if we assume if you hit it will be toppair. Or if you're just going to play any pair, roughly 40% to hit a pair, which makes raising your blind a nobrainer if you play this predictably.
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Well, first off, its very possible to play this predictably because most players don't have a clue, or aren't thinking in that light. If there were thinking like that, chances are I would know that by their play, and again, I would still have an advantage over them. Most blind steals don't come from rocks, but the semi-tight aggressives or the 20 VPIP crowd with a bunch of leaks. They overvalue their hand or think the other player is bluffing so much they can't help but call down. And if my pair of 2's win it, I could put this guy on tilt or make him think I'm a fish.
And you can raise my blind all you want, I know when I'm beat more than you will know when you beat me.
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Originally Posted by rorix
but overall I've found it quite profitable.
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I tell you my blind defense numbers are almost too good to be true. Actually you know that, but its fnord who's the smelly trout 
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Originally Posted by gabe
you must be kidding.
i am beginning to think you are just posting this stuff to get on everyone's nerves.
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No need to go there gabe, he made a statement he probably exagerated on but he's definately got more of a clue than you put him as.
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Originally Posted by fnord
I'm pleasantly surprised by the increasing quality of this guy's posts. At first I thought he was a twerp...
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Well when you start off dissing SSH you get that point, but Rorix you should join our IRC chats sometimes. Make yourself known to the community more, I'm more than interested in hearing more from you.
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
i think the only time i've ever played in a really tight game was that night i played with you, elipsesjeff, mike4066. probably blind steal/defense happened every third hand!
what can i say, i got my butt kicked
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I keep telling you you have to adjust your game to these situations. If you know you are at a table with 4 FTRers, don't be as predictable and you'll do much better (that doesnt mean raise UTG with ATo).
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