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saywhat2
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03-01-2006, 06:16 PM
Post subject: Super System Questions
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 113
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AS I have said before in my previous posts. I am fairly new to limit holdem. I have just finished reading the chapter on Limit Holdem in super system 2 written by Jennifer Harman. I found it very helpful. However there was to points she made that I would like to get other opinions on. Both points are based on 9 or 10 tables.
1)She says that if you are in the BB with A7os, a player in early position raises the rest of the players fold to you. She says the correct play is to fold.
2)She says that if you are in late position with AQos and 5 to 6 players have limped in before you. There is no reason to raise with this hand. It is counterproductive.
Tell me what you think about these two points.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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1) I completely agree, too likely to be dominated
2) I completely disagree, your raise is for value, not to limit the field.
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Nehmer
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
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I agree with both points. You are dominated too often with A7o and not likely to make enough when you aren't to make up for it.
With AQo and a bunch of limpers, there is a little value in the preflop raise, but you are creating a large enough pot to make it less likely for your opponents to make large postflop mistakes. It doesn't seem to me like the little bit of preflop value makes up for that.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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I agree with Jeff, with reservations. In case 2, If you are playing against a normally tight field, raising may be a mistake. Suppose you are at a table with typically 2 or 3 to the flop. If 5 or 6 limp in before you, there is a much higher chance than normal that many of your aces and queens are already in your opponents' hands. Sure, they could all have small to mid pocket pairs or suited connectors, but it is more likely that the majority of them have high cards. Although you probably aren't dominated, your chances of spiking a pair on the flop are probably about half usual. The person with the highest pocket pair here is probably the favorite. Even if many of your aces and queens aren't taken, it is more likely that the flop will bring someone a set, or give one or more people a strong draw than to give you top pair. Against a typical loose table, I agree with Jeff that this is a clear value raise, but at a tight table, a raise may actually be -EV (especially since you will be OOP). At a very tight table, with 6 limpers, it may actually be correct to fold AQo.
Here's an interesting related question ... at a very tight table you are on the button and 6 players have limped in. Which unsuited high card hand do you think has the highest EV? This is not an obvious question. The correct answer may be AK, but it could also be JT or QJ or AT. The point is to deduce the most likely cards that are in the opponents' hands and how much that effects your hand's value. Assume say a 20% VPIP average at the table (10 handed).
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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Quote:
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2)She says that if you are in late position with AQos and 5 to 6 players have limped in before you. There is no reason to raise with this hand. It is counterproductive.
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The edge is so small that if you passed on it, it wouldnt be the end of the world. You could also argue that your position could sway the vote. I havent played full ring since, well, I cant remember the last time I played a Full Ring game.
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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This argument is similar to the differece in raising KQo or AJo preflop in EP on the same table. If those hands are breakeven (which i think the argument came down to, so it didn't matter if you raised, called, or folded) then an AQo raise in LP is pretty obviously +EV. We aren't trying to win pots, we are trying to win money.
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saywhat2
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 113
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ihategnomes
Quote:
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2)She says that if you are in late position with AQos and 5 to 6 players have limped in before you. There is no reason to raise with this hand. It is counterproductive.
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The edge is so small that if you passed on it, it wouldnt be the end of the world. You could also argue that your position could sway the vote. I havent played full ring since, well, I cant remember the last time I played a Full Ring game. |
I don't think I was very clear here. ( But than again I never am) She is not saying fold. Just not worth a raise.
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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I agree, folding is horrible. Against 5 randoms limpers tho, your edge is not that great. Its not really comparable to the KQ/AJ debate as we already know how many people we have to act infront of us.
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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mike4066
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,943
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I don't know I still think I'm going to raise here. You have passive players who want to gambool and you have a strong top pair type hand.
In a pot that is 6-7 small bets before the flop without a riase you can't do much in the way of pot control. I say create some pot bloat and go for the 20 BB pot getting better than 4:1 on your money the whole way.
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