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stupid downswing (some content)

  
 
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 03-22-2006, 10:44 PM     Post subject: stupid downswing (some content) #1 (permalink)  
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well, hit a 100BB downswing at 2/4 6max clearing my recent party bonus (still not done). running like -5BB/100....i keep running into shit like this...

AKo, raise, call, call, call

flop comes, JJK
someone bets, i raise, call, call, call

turn brick
check, i bet, call, call, fold

river brick
check, i bet, call, call

and they flip over a jack. and to add to the misery, i made a "expert fold" yesturday. worst moment in my life for a while.

glad i'm downswinging at 2/4. this would really hurt at 5/10. btw, if anyone has nothin better to do than a hand review for me, drop me a PM.
 
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Demiparadigm
Old 03-22-2006, 11:04 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Why not drop the hand as soon as you get called in more than one spot on the flop?
Turn and river bets seem like spewing.

I'll look through your hands if you want. I need the practice.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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Old 03-22-2006, 11:19 PM #3 (permalink)  
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LOL sorry... JJK was the flop...and the guy who had trips wasn't the one who donked the flop.

man...if i can't put together a whining post, no wonder i can't beat this game!
 
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euphoricism
Old 03-22-2006, 11:52 PM #4 (permalink)  
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flop comes, JJK
someone bets, i raise, call, call, call

Yeah youre beat here, id estimate hmm.. i dunno.. 110% of the time. Though, he really gave you no reason to think you were... villain is either a moron or a genius...
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 03-23-2006, 12:00 AM #5 (permalink)  
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i think a genius gets more value outta me by raising the turn or river. he's definitelly a moron. it wasn't even s00ted!
 
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euphoricism
Old 03-23-2006, 12:49 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Well he got the overcaller to come along, which balances out the extra he MIGHT have gotten from a turn raise (assuming you called down, which I dont think you should have if he raised.)

Now if he had popped it on the river, I'd be drooling in envy.
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pokerfanatic
Old 03-23-2006, 01:27 AM #7 (permalink)  
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I can't win at poker so I’m just not going to give my comments...
“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

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|~|ypermegachi
Old 03-23-2006, 02:30 AM #8 (permalink)  
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just some examples...
------------------------------------
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, J.
2 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 9, K, Q (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB folds, CO calls.

Turn: (7 BB) K (3 players)
SB checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB folds, CO 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (13 BB) J (2 players)
CO bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB

Results in white below:
CO has Qs Kh (full house, kings full of queens).
Hero has Ks Jh (full house, kings full of jacks).
Outcome: CO wins 19 BB.
----------------------
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, J.
1 fold, MP calls, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, MP folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 6, Q, Q (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (12.25 BB) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Qs Jd (three of a kind, queens).
Button has Qd Ks (full house, queens full of kings).
Outcome: Button wins 14.25 BB.
----------------------------------

and setting the record for one of the worst played hands in a long long long long time....screwed up every post flop street

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with A, A.
1 fold, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Button calls, 2 folds, Hero caps, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) J, 8, Q (3 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) 7 (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 2 (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Button raises, Hero folds, CO calls $0.55 (All-In).

Final Pot: 15.88 BB

Results in white below:
CO has Th Qh (one pair, queens).
Button has Kc Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Button wins 15.88 BB.

now why the hell would i be afraid of a 3bet from CO if he's all in???? doh!
 
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Demiparadigm
Old 03-23-2006, 05:23 AM #9 (permalink)  
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I lose more on hand 1 and 2.

1 I cap the river.

2 I donk/call the river. (now that you post it, maybe check/call is better...)

3 I guess you know, but I 3 bet the flop and bet/call the turn, check/call the river if raised on the turn.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 03-24-2006, 01:22 AM #10 (permalink)  
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to think that maybe the last 200 raked hands to clear i could maybe break even....i lost an additional 100BB tonight in 562 hands. seriously...can't get a break!
---------------------------
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, K.
Hero raises, MP calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 6, 8, J (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 8 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP folds, BB raises, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 3 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.75 BB

Results in white below:
BB has Jh Jc (full house, jacks full of eights).
Hero has Qs Ks (flush, king high).
Outcome: BB wins 14.75 BB.
----------------------
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with A, J.
1 fold, Hero raises, Button calls, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) A, 4, A (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, Button folds.

Turn: (6 BB) 6 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

River: (10 BB) T (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls $4 (All-In).

Final Pot: 16 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Ac Jd (three of a kind, aces).
SB has Kh 8h (flush, ace high).
Outcome: SB wins 16 BB.
------------------------------
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, K.
UTG calls, MP calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 8, 5, J (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (5 BB) Q (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP folds.

River: (7 BB) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has 6c 4c (straight, eight high).
Hero has Qc Kh (one pair, queens).
Outcome: UTG wins 11 BB.
--------------------------
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, K.
1 fold, MP raises, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 9, Q, 8 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 4 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP calls, SB calls $3.50 (All-In).

River: (8.87 BB) 9 (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets, MP calls.

Final Pot: 10.87 BB

Results in white below:
SB has 9c Tc (three of a kind, nines).
Hero has Qc Kh (two pair, queens and nines).
MP has Ac Qs (two pair, queens and nines).
Outcome: SB wins 8.62 BB. MP wins 2.25 BB.


if you noticed i was all in on one hand. in fact, i lost my buyin at 2 tables.
 
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thenonsequitur
Old 03-24-2006, 01:28 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls $4 (All-In).
....
if you noticed i was all in on one hand. in fact, i lost my buyin at 2 tables.
Letting yourself go all-in is a leak I think. I'd rebuy before that point.
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euphoricism
Old 03-24-2006, 01:39 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Youre better than this moaning, hyper.

I dropped 300 bets last week. Swings happen. They suck.
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 03-24-2006, 12:37 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenonsequitur
Letting yourself go all-in is a leak I think. I'd rebuy before that point.
i actually consciously prevent myself from seeing how much money i have at the table as a way to prevent myself from tilting. i never know how much money i've won or lost until the end of the session when i import the hands into PT. in fact, i only noticed i lost my buyin when the call button had all in beside it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Youre better than this moaning, hyper.
i sure hope so.
 
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Ltrain
Old 03-24-2006, 02:04 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Hang in there and review some hands to see where you are, your skill will catch up to your luck as you know what you are doing.

Having not had a downswing of over 100BB before, I just went through a 200BB downswing after about 30K hands of breakeven 6 max poker and am just regaining my confidence, although not back to normal yet. After reviewing hands, I realized I was being weak in stealing/defending blinds and I was having difficulties getting good table position, but otherwise variance was kicking my ass.

I think we should all remind ourselves that the luck factor is huge in hold em (or no one would play), and that for the smaller games, you have to be really good consistently to beat the rake, which unfortunately plays a bigger role in the 6 max games.
"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
 
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Renton
Old 03-24-2006, 02:31 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 You're a really good player right hyper?

EEK, I wanna learn limit, but if the swings are this bad for people who KNOW how to play, then I can't imagine how bad they will be for someone learning to play.

Wouldn't a 100bb downswing be the equivalent to a 6-8 buyin swing at NL? I've very rarely experienced swings like this in NL.
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 03-24-2006, 05:06 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
You're a really good player right hyper?

EEK, I wanna learn limit, but if the swings are this bad for people who KNOW how to play, then I can't imagine how bad they will be for someone learning to play.

Wouldn't a 100bb downswing be the equivalent to a 6-8 buyin swing at NL? I've very rarely experienced swings like this in NL.
me good? i can't say. i think a lot of people who read this forum put me at a higher level just because i put together a guide on playing shorthanded limit poker. i'm just like everyone else. some would say the key to winning poker is to:
1) not make mistakes
2) not tilt
3) run good

the truth is, all of that information in my guide is widely available, and i just condensed it into a nice and easy to read format. in fact, when you read it through, you'll realize that i left all the most advanced stuff out (i.e. player specific plays. you'll notice i always say "trust in your read" because ultimately, you need to cater your tactics to each opponent).

i think you should still give limit a try. it might suit you better. having downswings like this a limit are pretty rare over many hands. you'll see 100BB swings every 10000 hands or something like that. so you'll be trunkin along and everything's fine, and then you'll need to cope with a downswing. what really pissed me off back in the NL ring days was losing my buyin 3 or 4 times in a row. i'd rather bleed than have a heart attack.
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 03-26-2006, 07:49 PM #17 (permalink)  
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 Actually, posting your bad beats does nothing at all to help out your play. I was here on thursday i would've probably locked the thread. NOTHING good can ever come from looking over hands where you are playing good but running bad.


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|~|ypermegachi
Old 03-26-2006, 09:13 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Actually, posting your bad beats does nothing at all to help out your play. I was here on thursday i would've probably locked the thread. NOTHING good can ever come from looking over hands where you are playing good but running bad.
sorry people. i'm pretty good with dealing with tilt at the table, but i deal with it horribly outside the table. hehehe...gotta vent somewhere...

well at least it's good to know i didn't fug up any of the hands i posted.

anyways, a large majority of my losses came from a whole bunch of red 3BB losses in PT. i think i need to rethink when to continuation bet on the turn.

cross-post: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=31874
 
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SonOfAkira
Old 03-27-2006, 12:40 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Actually, posting your bad beats does nothing at all to help out your play. I was here on thursday i would've probably locked the thread. NOTHING good can ever come from looking over hands where you are playing good but running bad.
(Take with a grain of salt, i'm not a limit player)
However, to be fair, the majority of these are bad beats but not all, and there is some high content in the other hands.
The AA hand comes to mind, for this seems like a very tilty hand. A tilt symptom, opposite of a chip spew, where play is very tentative. This is death in NL, not maximizing value, and I assume it is the same, if not more, in limit. Bad beats might be low content but techniques in dealing with the subsequent tilt is very high content. This is, incidentally, my main tilt symptom, and seems to be much better than bleeding chips, but is equally detrimental in the long run.
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elipsesjeff
Old 03-27-2006, 01:10 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfAkira
Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Actually, posting your bad beats does nothing at all to help out your play. I was here on thursday i would've probably locked the thread. NOTHING good can ever come from looking over hands where you are playing good but running bad.
(Take with a grain of salt, i'm not a limit player)
However, to be fair, the majority of these are bad beats but not all, and there is some high content in the other hands.
The AA hand comes to mind, for this seems like a very tilty hand. A tilt symptom, opposite of a chip spew, where play is very tentative. This is death in NL, not maximizing value, and I assume it is the same, if not more, in limit. Bad beats might be low content but techniques in dealing with the subsequent tilt is very high content. This is, incidentally, my main tilt symptom, and seems to be much better than bleeding chips, but is equally detrimental in the long run.
I wont disagree, but in my experience tilt in LHE builds from the rememberance of the hand and not how it can be played better. If the true intent of posting these hands was to insight meaningful conversations about quality hands, then those hands should be singled out from the bad beats and running bad (not necessarily one the same, like losing set over set, etc).

To me, the hands were cluttered with hands he could do nothing about or played perfectly fine in, and I'm 99.99% sure he KNOWS the correct play and doesn't need our analysis on these hands.

I would much rather forget the hand as soon as possible because even if you played it horribly, thinking about it will only make how you play in the future be poor as well.


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euphoricism
Old 03-27-2006, 06:44 AM #21 (permalink)  
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There is no such thing as luck. Remember that. We have no say in what cards come out of the dealer's hand -- the biggest decision we can make that influences the outcome of a hand is whether to play it or not. Beyond that, "poker" is the skill of maximizing gains while minimizing losses. The rest is just an overly complex game of war.


God, I'm so quotable.
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Ltrain
Old 03-27-2006, 03:37 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
There is no such thing as luck. Remember that. We have no say in what cards come out of the dealer's hand -- the biggest decision we can make that influences the outcome of a hand is whether to play it or not. Beyond that, "poker" is the skill of maximizing gains while minimizing losses. The rest is just an overly complex game of war.


God, I'm so quotable.
Sure there is. Luck = short term mathematical variance to me. Yes, we make bets to maximize gains and limit losses based upon the odds and our player evaluations with each round, but in the process of isolating 10K hands, or one session, or one hand , if I am 1:5 to hit a draw and I hit, that is luck. How else would you describe, say, a person flipping a coin 10 times and getting heads each time? In one word ?

Also, to Jeff's point, I see your argument, but I find reviewing hands in a downswing helpful for the quoted reason not to review the hands. If a player hits his gutshot or two pair draw to beat me when I was justified in my play, it reinforces to me that I am playing correctly and am just getting beat. However, one of the symptoms of a downswing can be loose suited connector play and overplaying high cards; why would you not want to catch this before it becomes a major problem?
"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
 
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euphoricism
Old 03-27-2006, 06:26 PM #23 (permalink)  
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"luck" = "statistical variance". While the meanings are similar, people who think of losses in terms of "luck" and people who think of losses in terms of "stastistical variance" will view the game in very different ways.

If you hit your SD or FD getting 5:1, that is not "luck". That is math.
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Old 03-27-2006, 06:29 PM #24 (permalink)  
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And what part of miami are you in? I was born and raised there, down in the kendall area
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Ltrain
Old 03-27-2006, 08:02 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
And what part of miami are you in? I was born and raised there, down in the kendall area
South Miami. Born and raised in Wisconsin; moved down here for Law School and the weather. PM me if you are planning on visiting anytime soon.
"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
 
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