stud8, drawing towards the low

**thizzSantaCruz** · 12-20-2007 05:02 PM

Full Tilt Poker Game #4565277968: Table Procyon - $0.25/$0.50 Ante $0.05 - Limit Stud H/L - 12:56:00 ET - 2007/12/20
Seat 1: treyjunkin ($7.75)
Seat 2: serafin ($6.70)
Seat 3: fly73 ($3.25)
Seat 4: rancidvat ($4.70)
Seat 5: 2betmore ($14), is sitting out
Seat 6: SavageSC ($10)
Seat 7: sesha2 ($0.95)
sesha2 antes $0.05
serafin antes $0.05
treyjunkin antes $0.05
fly73 antes $0.05
rancidvat antes $0.05
5 seconds left to act
SavageSC antes $0.05
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to treyjunkin [3d]
Dealt to serafin [8c]
Dealt to fly73 [Ts]
Dealt to rancidvat [2h]
Dealt to SavageSC [5h 6d] [3s]
Dealt to sesha2 [Td]
rancidvat is low with [2h]
rancidvat brings in for $0.10
SavageSC calls $0.10
sesha2 folds
treyjunkin completes it to $0.25
serafin folds
fly73 calls $0.25
rancidvat folds
SavageSC calls $0.15
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to treyjunkin [3d] [Ks]
Dealt to fly73 [Ts] [Kc]
Dealt to SavageSC [5h 6d 3s] [7h]
fly73 bets $0.25
SavageSC calls $0.25
treyjunkin calls $0.25
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to treyjunkin [3d Ks] [5d]
Dealt to fly73 [Ts Kc] [3c]
Dealt to SavageSC [5h 6d 3s 7h] [Qc]
fly73 bets $0.50
SavageSC has 15 seconds left to act
SavageSC calls $0.50
treyjunkin calls $0.50
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to treyjunkin [3d Ks 5d] [8s]
Dealt to fly73 [Ts Kc 3c] [Qs]
Dealt to SavageSC [5h 6d 3s 7h Qc] [5c]
fly73 bets $0.50
SavageSC calls $0.50
treyjunkin calls $0.50
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to SavageSC [5h 6d 3s 7h Qc 5c] [Tc]
fly73 bets $0.50
SavageSC folds
treyjunkin calls $0.50

should i fold 6th st here? villain hit good but its 8 high while my draw is 7 high?

**givememyleg** · 12-20-2007 06:25 PM

Fold 3rd.

**thizzSantaCruz** · 12-20-2007 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Fold 3rd.

can you explain why? I have a decent drawing hand towards the low with straight possibilities. Is it because another low raises it up, and allthough my low draw is good its not suited and doesn't have an ace?

**dsaxton** · 12-20-2007 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Fold 3rd.

You mean raise, right?

3rd is a raise, and so is 4th.

**thizzSantaCruz** · 12-20-2007 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Fold 3rd.

You mean raise, right?

3rd is a raise, and so is 4th.

So its usually good to raise these low starting hands? Also when we hit good on 4th its usually good to raise?

**dsaxton** · 12-21-2007 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Fold 3rd.

You mean raise, right?

3rd is a raise, and so is 4th.

So its usually good to raise these low starting hands? Also when we hit good on 4th its usually good to raise?

It's a mistake to think of it as a "low" hand. It's a hand with good two-way potential that should be raised for value. 4th you should raise for value because you currently have the only low draw against two apparent high hands (I have no idea why fly73 would bet 4th after catching a K if he wasn't going high) with four outs to scoop. Having a hand like this against two players going high is one of the most profitable situations in this game, since you can jam with impunity and potentially get called in both spots.

**thizzSantaCruz** · 12-21-2007 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Fold 3rd.

You mean raise, right?

3rd is a raise, and so is 4th.

So its usually good to raise these low starting hands? Also when we hit good on 4th its usually good to raise?

It's a mistake to think of it as a "low" hand. It's a hand with good two-way potential that should be raised for value. 4th you should raise for value because you currently have the only low draw against two apparent high hands (I have no idea why fly73 would bet 4th after catching a K if he wasn't going high) with four outs to scoop. Having a hand like this against two players going high is one of the most profitable situations in this game, since you can jam with
impunity and potentially get called in both spots.

If we brick 5th do we go into check/call mode to let us draw for as cheap as possible?

**TLR** · 12-21-2007 12:56 AM

I call 3rd but I see a logic to raise
Definitly raise 4th,
5th is a call,
6th is definitly a call and I can see a case for a raise, you may be able to get the possible 8 low hand to fold and you are probably up vs a pair from fly73

**gunnerforrest** · 02-17-2008 02:01 AM

I'd say that 3rd is a call, rather than a raise. You've got a good starter for the low, and a decent, but not great hand for the high. It's speculative, and as such, you want people in the pot, rather than folding to another raise, simply to get more money in should you make a big hand.

4th street is certainly a raise. Your 7 draw is rough, but still looking better than any other, plus the straight draw, even though it is a gutshot, is a welcome addition. I normally would say to put 1 raise in here, but no more, in order to build value without scaring anyone off, but you do actually want to scare off the K-3 so that you can claim the low by yourself. (at least that's how I would play it) Now that you've got a good advantage for the low, make him pay dearly to try to outdraw you that way, otherwise you risk him catching good the rest of the way out and you catching bad (exactly what happened).

By the time 6th rolls around I think all signs point to folding as your best option. You are drawing better than he's made, true, but there's nothing to say that he can't catch better, even if you do too. Even if you make your 7 low on 7th, he is drawing smoother, and thus can hit a 6, 7 and either an A,2 or 4 (depending on what he's got in the hole, and considering his raise on 3rd, I'd say he's probably close to perfect in the hold).

So you DO have a few outs to win the low, but he looks to be very strong in the hole (I'm thinking 2-4 in the hole) so he has a ton of outs even if you do outdraw him, plus, if my guess is correct, he's got an open-ended straight draw to possibly scoop with. So you're a big dog both ways. Not a good spot to stick around and chase a low that still might not be good enough.

I would definitely say that your only option on 6th in this situation is to let it go.

12-20-2007 05:02 PM #1
thizzSantaCruz View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Oct 2006 Posts 1,886 Location Santa Cruz	stud8, drawing towards the low Full Tilt Poker Game #4565277968: Table Procyon - $0.25/$0.50 Ante $0.05 - Limit Stud H/L - 12:56:00 ET - 2007/12/20 Seat 1: treyjunkin ($7.75) Seat 2: serafin ($6.70) Seat 3: fly73 ($3.25) Seat 4: rancidvat ($4.70) Seat 5: 2betmore ($14), is sitting out Seat 6: SavageSC ($10) Seat 7: sesha2 ($0.95) sesha2 antes $0.05 serafin antes $0.05 treyjunkin antes $0.05 fly73 antes $0.05 rancidvat antes $0.05 5 seconds left to act SavageSC antes $0.05 * 3RD STREET * Dealt to treyjunkin [3d] Dealt to serafin [8c] Dealt to fly73 [Ts] Dealt to rancidvat [2h] Dealt to SavageSC [5h 6d] [3s] Dealt to sesha2 [Td] rancidvat is low with [2h] rancidvat brings in for $0.10 SavageSC calls $0.10 sesha2 folds treyjunkin completes it to $0.25 serafin folds fly73 calls $0.25 rancidvat folds SavageSC calls $0.15 * 4TH STREET * Dealt to treyjunkin [3d] [Ks] Dealt to fly73 [Ts] [Kc] Dealt to SavageSC [5h 6d 3s] [7h] fly73 bets $0.25 SavageSC calls $0.25 treyjunkin calls $0.25 * 5TH STREET * Dealt to treyjunkin [3d Ks] [5d] Dealt to fly73 [Ts Kc] [3c] Dealt to SavageSC [5h 6d 3s 7h] [Qc] fly73 bets $0.50 SavageSC has 15 seconds left to act SavageSC calls $0.50 treyjunkin calls $0.50 * 6TH STREET * Dealt to treyjunkin [3d Ks 5d] [8s] Dealt to fly73 [Ts Kc 3c] [Qs] Dealt to SavageSC [5h 6d 3s 7h Qc] [5c] fly73 bets $0.50 SavageSC calls $0.50 treyjunkin calls $0.50 * 7TH STREET * Dealt to SavageSC [5h 6d 3s 7h Qc 5c] [Tc] fly73 bets $0.50 SavageSC folds treyjunkin calls $0.50 should i fold 6th st here? villain hit good but its 8 high while my draw is 7 high?
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12-20-2007 06:25 PM #2
givememyleg View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 13,798 Location ISHPERMING MISHIGEN	Fold 3rd.
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12-20-2007 07:30 PM #3
thizzSantaCruz View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Oct 2006 Posts 1,886 Location Santa Cruz	Originally Posted by givememyleg Fold 3rd. can you explain why? I have a decent drawing hand towards the low with straight possibilities. Is it because another low raises it up, and allthough my low draw is good its not suited and doesn't have an ace?
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12-20-2007 10:14 PM #4
dsaxton View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jan 2005 Posts 2,733 Location Arlington, VA	Originally Posted by givememyleg Fold 3rd. You mean raise, right? 3rd is a raise, and so is 4th.

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12-20-2007 11:37 PM #5
thizzSantaCruz View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Oct 2006 Posts 1,886 Location Santa Cruz	Originally Posted by dsaxton Originally Posted by givememyleg Fold 3rd. You mean raise, right? 3rd is a raise, and so is 4th. So its usually good to raise these low starting hands? Also when we hit good on 4th its usually good to raise?
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stud8, drawing towards the low

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12-21-2007 12:19 AM #6
dsaxton View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jan 2005 Posts 2,733 Location Arlington, VA	Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz Originally Posted by dsaxton Originally Posted by givememyleg Fold 3rd. You mean raise, right? 3rd is a raise, and so is 4th. So its usually good to raise these low starting hands? Also when we hit good on 4th its usually good to raise? It's a mistake to think of it as a "low" hand. It's a hand with good two-way potential that should be raised for value. 4th you should raise for value because you currently have the only low draw against two apparent high hands (I have no idea why fly73 would bet 4th after catching a K if he wasn't going high) with four outs to scoop. Having a hand like this against two players going high is one of the most profitable situations in this game, since you can jam with impunity and potentially get called in both spots.

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12-21-2007 12:48 AM #7
thizzSantaCruz View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Oct 2006 Posts 1,886 Location Santa Cruz	Originally Posted by dsaxton Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz Originally Posted by dsaxton Originally Posted by givememyleg Fold 3rd. You mean raise, right? 3rd is a raise, and so is 4th. So its usually good to raise these low starting hands? Also when we hit good on 4th its usually good to raise? It's a mistake to think of it as a "low" hand. It's a hand with good two-way potential that should be raised for value. 4th you should raise for value because you currently have the only low draw against two apparent high hands (I have no idea why fly73 would bet 4th after catching a K if he wasn't going high) with four outs to scoop. Having a hand like this against two players going high is one of the most profitable situations in this game, since you can jam with impunity and potentially get called in both spots. If we brick 5th do we go into check/call mode to let us draw for as cheap as possible?
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12-21-2007 12:56 AM #8
TLR View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2004 Posts 5,908	I call 3rd but I see a logic to raise Definitly raise 4th, 5th is a call, 6th is definitly a call and I can see a case for a raise, you may be able to get the possible 8 low hand to fold and you are probably up vs a pair from fly73

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02-17-2008 02:01 AM #9
gunnerforrest View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jan 2008 Posts 31 Location Athens, Georgia	I'd say that 3rd is a call, rather than a raise. You've got a good starter for the low, and a decent, but not great hand for the high. It's speculative, and as such, you want people in the pot, rather than folding to another raise, simply to get more money in should you make a big hand. 4th street is certainly a raise. Your 7 draw is rough, but still looking better than any other, plus the straight draw, even though it is a gutshot, is a welcome addition. I normally would say to put 1 raise in here, but no more, in order to build value without scaring anyone off, but you do actually want to scare off the K-3 so that you can claim the low by yourself. (at least that's how I would play it) Now that you've got a good advantage for the low, make him pay dearly to try to outdraw you that way, otherwise you risk him catching good the rest of the way out and you catching bad (exactly what happened). By the time 6th rolls around I think all signs point to folding as your best option. You are drawing better than he's made, true, but there's nothing to say that he can't catch better, even if you do too. Even if you make your 7 low on 7th, he is drawing smoother, and thus can hit a 6, 7 and either an A,2 or 4 (depending on what he's got in the hole, and considering his raise on 3rd, I'd say he's probably close to perfect in the hold). So you DO have a few outs to win the low, but he looks to be very strong in the hole (I'm thinking 2-4 in the hole) so he has a ton of outs even if you do outdraw him, plus, if my guess is correct, he's got an open-ended straight draw to possibly scoop with. So you're a big dog both ways. Not a good spot to stick around and chase a low that still might not be good enough. I would definitely say that your only option on 6th in this situation is to let it go.

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