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ArcticKnight
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01-06-2006, 05:39 AM
Post subject: Strategy Question #2 - Opinions please
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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assume no reads
6 handed
You are on the Button with J/10clubs and raise, SB calls, and the BB calls.
Flop comes, 4Clubs, A hearts, 8 clubs
SB bets, BB raises
On the button do you fold, cold-call, or raise, and why - Looking for opinions.
Thanks again
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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you're getting 4.5:1 on your money, you are about breakeven on the flush hitting with those odds, if you don't think anyone else is drawing here, i say flat call in order to keep SB in to give implied odds to push you into the profitable region of the call
edit: thought of this late, a 3bet would be good if you already had a pair + flush draw
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by outphase
you're getting 4.5:1 on your money, you are about breakeven on the flush hitting with those odds, if you don't think anyone else is drawing here, i say flat call in order to keep SB in to give implied odds to push you into the profitable region of the call
edit: thought of this late, a 3bet would be good if you already had a pair + flush draw
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Call.
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Poker is freedom
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SSocal
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: So Cal of course
Posts: 14
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Re-raise may get you a free card
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SSocal
Re-raise may get you a free card
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Yuck. We don't want to push SB out, nor do we want to pay through the arse for our flush draw, nor we do we want to be capped. The only real drawback to flat calling is, well, its obvious what you're flat calling for, and the raise might be decent for deceptive purposes - but I think pushing the SB out here would be a big mistake.
If it was just SB who bet, BB called, I'd like a raise, and even then, I bet the turn and check behind a missed river. I don't want free cards because I have odds to draw - that means I'm making money whether my flush draw hits or not. Why take a free card - I want money in the pot.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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Since you raised preflop, 3 bet the flop. BB or SB is representing Aces, but likely do not have a top kicker. You showed agression preflop and they have to respect the fact that you may have an Ace with top kicker. This should set up a free card situation unless SB or BB have top kicker or higher hand, in which case they may cap you on the flop and you have better knowledge that you will need the flush to win. With just a call, SB or BB will donk you on the turn costing you an extra bet. SB bet the flop, they will call a 3 bet. Also, for metagame purposes you may want to 3bet or they will think you are FOS when you steal in the future.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Your flat call could also say Ace. We already know (by the fact that we've raised preflop, been bet and raised into on the flop) that we must hit our flush to win.
We want SB or BB to bet out the turn. We want to call. We have odds, we're making money everytime we call with odds whether we hit or not. Why would we want less money in the pot?
We also have the backdoor straight draw.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
I don't want free cards because I have odds to draw - that means I'm making money whether my flush draw hits or not.
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In a situation where you will have to showdown a hand to win and you are behind, betting the turn is costing you money.
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Poker is freedom
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
Your flat call could also say Ace. We already know (by the fact that we've raised preflop, been bet and raised into on the flop) that we must hit our flush to win.
We want SB or BB to bet out the turn. We want to call. We have odds, we're making money everytime we call with odds whether we hit or not. Why would we want less money in the pot?
We also have the backdoor straight draw.
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A call could say Ace, but it won't prevent a turn donk bet, which is more important to us. We have an equity edge on the flop, not the turn, we want a free card if we don't hit and would rather pay 1SB on the raise than 2 SB on the turn call. If more $$ are going into the pot after the flop, we want to be in the lead.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ltrain
A call could say Ace, but it won't prevent a turn donk bet, which is more important to us.
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Your opponents will lead many non club turns either way, but this is a fair point. A read helps here.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ltrain
We have an equity edge on the flop, not the turn, we want a free card if we don't hit and would rather pay 1SB on the raise than 2 SB on the turn call. If more $$ are going into the pot after the flop, we want to be in the lead.
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Your equity edge on the flop is pretty thin, and likely won't improve if SB folds. I'd be more interested in keeping this a multi-way pot than getting a free card unless you think BB would raise the flop with less than top pair.
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Poker is freedom
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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I see both lines working. 3 Betting could save you 1/2 BB at most but also cost you 1/2 BB from the small blind. If you hit, you'll get an extra BB out of the original raisor than normal if you dont 3bet the flop, which would give you an additional 1/2 BB a third of the time.
Doing a rough guestimate of math in my head, its breakeven or so so do the one with the least amount of variance. And thats calling.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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To follow Koolmoe's point for non-club turns, the limit you are playing should also make a difference in how you play the flop. At 3/6 6 max where I am now, a flop raise will get called by the blinds and they will check to you on the turn most of the time to give you a free card. However, I could see a call at higher levels where a thinking player will donk you if they read you for a draw.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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Call. If pairing gave you a good chance to win, then raise, but here, call is clearly correct.
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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Thanks for responding everyone.
The feedback and rationale each of you put forward is helpful, and I enjoyed reading the dialogue
Thx again.
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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