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bigspenda73
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11-06-2006, 06:36 AM
Post subject: Strategy against the uber aggressive/maniacs
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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OK, this is a general topic, however, I play SHLHE so I will post it here. I have posted something similar to this, however, I want to start a new thread on it.
When I say maniac I mean a players seeing 80% or more flops, a player w/ an insane PFR% and aggression factor. We all know this player, so going into detail here is fruitless.
This discussion is about short term profit versus long term profit when playing a maniac and which one is in fact more.....profitable.
I will first share my strategy in dealing with maniacs and my reasoning:
When dealing with a maniac/ultra-LAGG I feel that passivity is the best possible approach. I believe it is all a matter of psyche. The maniac is playing low limit poker and playing wrecklessly. To me this proves two things:
1. He/she does not have much money
2. He/she likes feeling dominant, aggressive, in control and poker gives them this edge.
For these reasons I will very rarely (never doesn't exist in poker) punch a maniac back in the face, even with a big hand. I do this for many reasons, however, the major one is I feel if I ever were to raise/3bet/cap this type of player I fear that they will lose their aggression which for me is certainly -EV.
This is a strategy I feel is profitable for me, however, I will get back to my main question, does this strategy make more over the long run than what I am losing in the present by not gaining from each hand as much as I could? More simply, do I get back the 1BB I didn't gain by raising the turn against this player by keeping him around and aggressive?
I feel having position on a table maniac is about as +EV as you can get in limit hold'em.
So, what does everyone think, who constantly 3bets this player PF, who raises their cbets, who c/r them on the turn? Or, who just flat calls them down each and every hand and allows them to keep spweing their chips one hand after another? Do you actually make more in the long run by playing this player passive than you would by playing them aggressively? Furthermore, does anyone feel that by raising this type of player that they will eventually shut down and lose all of their aggression, or does anyone believe that this type of player will always play this way no matter how much you play back at them?
I guess this discussion could be summed up in a few words:
In playing maniacs, does one feel it is more profitable to play passively and win more later or play aggressively and win more now?
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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I like to get their money sooner than later. I try to play each pot with them for maximum gain. When I am at a table with such a player, I will play at most one other table so that I can concentrate on reading the player and also reading how the rest of the table is reacting. This is usually a more dynamic situation than usual, with everyone's play adjusting to the maniac. Pay close attention and rake in the chips by staying a step ahead of everyone at the table. Short-handed, I agree that having position on the maniac is the best. Do your best to isolate preflop, 3-betting slightly looser than your normal open-raising range when the maniac is the only one in the pot. Even if the maniac adjusts and slows down a bit, from my experience, he will usually do this on the flop or turn, and not preflop. Your edge will still be big, just not as big as before, and you don't know if he will be slowing down at all until you see it. I really think this kind of meta-game strategy will almost always cost you money at low stakes.
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Mr_Pokah
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 20
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Another thing when playing with maniacs is that you can control the potsize. If you have a marginal hand say middlepair low kicker, just call down, keep the pot small. When you have a big hand get into a raising war with the maniac and build a big pot (usually the maniacs will help you out here and reraise you).
Win the big pots and lose the small ones.
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"Depend on the rabbit's foot if you will, but remember it didn't work for the rabbit. "
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spoonitnow
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11-21-2006, 04:20 AM
Post subject: Re: Strategy against the uber aggressive/maniacs
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#4 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
1. He/she does not have much money
2. He/she likes feeling dominant, aggressive, in control and poker gives them this edge.
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I'm not sure both of these are necessarily true. They could just suck 
In all seriousness though, playing against guys like this when you're shorter than 5-handed is one of my favorite scenarios. I'm looking to play a lot of pots since I can make a much wider range of hands profitable against someone who plays like this.
Just be smart about it. Middle pair is going to have a lot more showdown value, but Q-high is still usually going to suck.
Something that I find interesting is when you're in a multi-way pot with one of these guys and then someone else who is a lot more conservative. Requires a lot more thinking, but being able to adapt there better than your conservative opponent will give you big $$ from both of them.
It's past midnight and I'm not sure if I'm making sense, but I think you get the point.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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bigspenda73
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11-21-2006, 04:24 AM
Post subject: Re: Strategy against the uber aggressive/maniacs
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#5 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
1. He/she does not have much money
2. He/she likes feeling dominant, aggressive, in control and poker gives them this edge.
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I'm not sure both of these are necessarily true. They could just suck
In all seriousness though, playing against guys like this when you're shorter than 5-handed is one of my favorite scenarios. I'm looking to play a lot of pots since I can make a much wider range of hands profitable against someone who plays like this.
Just be smart about it. Middle pair is going to have a lot more showdown value, but Q-high is still usually going to suck.
Something that I find interesting is when you're in a multi-way pot with one of these guys and then someone else who is a lot more conservative. Requires a lot more thinking, but being able to adapt there better than your conservative opponent will give you big $$ from both of them.
It's past midnight and I'm not sure if I'm making sense, but I think you get the point. |
I like your attitude on this one. It seems as if you really relish this type of situation while I myself kind of dread having one of these players sit down. Sure, it can be profitable, however, it's just not poker to me.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Well it's just a thang. You *know* that these guys can be exploited, so why have a fear or discomfort that stems from them? If you don't know how to play against them, that can be fixed
Btw, I pm'ed you.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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My general strategy is to put them on my right, tighten up, 3 bet preflop to isolate them and expect to go to showdown. Since they are playing most every hand, look at the matchup mathematically and know that if your starting selection is better than theirs, you will win their money.
The worst situation though is to have a maniac on both sides of you or a very loose passive player behind you. They will not let you isolate the maniac, and will drive up your pot size to make their loose calls almost the right choice, or at least close enough to ruin your edge against the rake.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Maniacs on your left will make your day suck. Get them on your right or get off the table.
Reraise them thin, try and get as many pots as possible heads-up when you have an above average hand (literally above AVERAGE. Not good. Just above average.) and generally take any piece to showdown.
Pray they don't run good, because those days are the WOORRRSSSTTT.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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On your left is probably the best if a very loose full ring table and the maniac bet/raises most flops. He becomes your pot odds control partner.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Pssst this is the SH forum ;]
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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Yeah, I know, but I think it deserves mentioning that on your right is not always the ideal place for a maniac to be.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xanadu
On your left is probably the best if a very loose full ring table and the maniac bet/raises most flops. He becomes your pot odds control partner.
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Yes, definitely suited more for full ring because Shorthanded tends to be an isolation, force-out type game, but if you have a very loose table and you can stomach a maniac on your left and the massive variance it will bring, favor all pockets and suited connectors over off suited broadway and play for the big pots.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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